Transterrestrial Musings

Comments

I rather like Ferris's comment here which addresses why it's important to post this someplace like DailyKos:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/6/12/204134/801#c5

"Space Colonization is the future and the more liberals and progressives that understand it, the better we are. Unfortantly, most progressives/liberals don't know or understnad the importance of space colonization, and so frequently, as this article demonstrates, there is a real lack of knowledge and understanding of the potential of space, and the coming advances in space, that are very close to fruition. Perhaps the biggest thing - this isn't about crushing the Republicans, as much as it is about saving the planet - in the process, we'll beat them, but there are larger issues."

Posted by Neil H. at June 19, 2007 02:13 PM

More people (and a more diverse audience) will read Ferris at Daily Kos than they would at his own blog/ domain.

Kinda like me, here.

;-p

Posted by Bill White at June 19, 2007 02:20 PM

More people (and a more diverse audience) will read Ferris at Daily Kos than they would at his own blog/ domain.

Why?

I'm expressing ignorance here, because I don't understand how Kos works. Are Kossites more likely to read a blog if it's a Kos diary? Are they more likely to find it? How? I'd think that it would just get buried in all the Bush derangement. Please enlighten me.

If you're right, I'm certainly all in favor of "reaching across the aisle." I just don't get how that happens.

Posted by Rand Simberg at June 19, 2007 02:24 PM

Rand, you may be unaware of the traffic that site gets. Massive, very massive. Over 31,000 pages views in the last hour. 284,000 so far today.

And it may surprise you, but there are a great many Kos readers who get bored by the never-ending "Bush is da' Hitler" diary. But writing good diaries is hard work, so many kudos to Ferris for doing far more than a drive-by posting.

Anyway, here is a space diary I wrote last year.

Got 17 votes for "front page" status and 135 comments.

Space Exploration: Why?

Posted by Bill White at June 19, 2007 02:37 PM

Rand, you may be unaware of the traffic that site gets. Massive, very massive. Over 31,000 pages views in the last hour. 284,000 so far today.

I'm not unaware of that at all. Did you know that typepad.com and blog_spot.com get even more traffic? They're just ways of running blogs. They're not ways of publicizing blogs.

Are you going to answer my question? How would a Kossack find Ferris' diary?

Posted by Rand Simberg at June 19, 2007 02:47 PM

It has never occurred to me to scroll through random blogs at blog_spot or type_pad looking for stuff to read.

Anyway, at Daily Kos the most recent 50 user submitted diaries are listed in a column on the right hand side. I simply scroll down and look for stuff that interests me. Once someone finds Ferris (by serendipity) they can add him to their "hotlist" as I have and every time a user logs on they can see what new diaries he has written.

Titles will therefore be important to attract initial interest and there is some real serendipity in finding gems amongst the rubbish.

But again, with over 100,000 registered users and many many more non-registered visitors, tens of thousands of people will scroll past your diary looking for something to read. Pick up a few percent and its better than reliance on google in competition with the zillions of space blogs out there.

Ferris may wish to expand his horizons and cross-post, which is acceptable behavior at DKos.

(Kuro5hin in contrast frowns on cross-posting.)

Create your own blog and cross-post entries as diaries at Daily Kos and at other group sites such as forvm.org (formed by refugees from Josh Trevino's tacitus.org) or swordscrossed.

It would be easy enough for Ferris to post nearly identical content at Kos and at a free blog site of his very own yet I believe Ferris desires to preach to the lefties to become space advocates.

Posted by Bill White at June 19, 2007 03:06 PM

...its better than reliance on google in competition with the zillions of space blogs out there

"zillions of space blogs"?

And I'm supposed to take the rest of your post seriously?

Want to try again?

And just as an aside, you're supposed to be a lawyer...?

Again, remind me to not have you represent me, should the need arise.

Posted by Rand Simberg at June 19, 2007 03:30 PM

Again, remind me to not have you represent me, should the need arise.

Actually, I am a pretty good real estate lawyer if you want the deal to close after a mutually satisfactory win-win negotiation. With all parties smiling and shaking hands at the closing table.

If you desire to extract a pound of flesh from your opponent? Nope. It's better if I refer you to some sharks I know. And I know some killer sharks.

Criminal law? I plea bargain very, very well. Trials? Again, I know people who who are better than me at that. And I refer out my criminal trials.

Gotta know your strengths and weaknesses.

Posted by Bill White at June 19, 2007 06:21 PM

That attempted defense of your legal expertise is all nice, Bill, but you still haven't explained to me how Ferris having a blog at Kos propagates space memes to Kossacks. At least not to anyone acquainted with the blogosphere, and logic. I'm not saying that it's not possible, but I'm still awaiting an explanation that makes sense. That is, to someone other than a Democrat...

Posted by Rand Simberg at June 19, 2007 06:29 PM

If Ferris started a blog out in Typepad wilderness, how would he get left-leaners to read it?

Posting space advocacy diaries at Daily Kos is certainly not sufficient to win Democratic support but it cannot hurt AND once the idea of private sector investment in space is brought up, the general consensus is supportive.

Giving tax dollars to Boeing and Lockheed and ATK? Much less support for that.

My impression is that Daily Kos readers are much more supportive of space tourism (for example) as compared with the European (ESA) attitude. And that is a start.

Posted by Bill White at June 19, 2007 06:51 PM

If Ferris started a blog out in Typepad wilderness, how would he get left-leaners to read it?

I've no idea. How does starting out a blog in the Kos wilderness help him?

I'm still waiting for an explanation of how having a Kos diary, as opposed to a non-Kos blog, helps him publicize it to Kossacks. There may be an explanation, but you still haven't provided one.

Posted by Rand Simberg at June 19, 2007 06:54 PM

> I'm expressing ignorance here, because I don't understand how Kos works. Are Kossites more likely to read a blog if it's a Kos diary? Are they more likely to find it? How?

I don't read Kos myself, but I think they are indeed more likely to find it. Being part of the existing community lowers the activation energy required for a Kos reader to become a reader of Ferris's diary, and it also ensures (for both Ferris and commenters) that commenters will be primarily progressive/liberal types. I guess it also probably means that things like spam detection are already taken care of by the Kos powers-that-be.

In any case, if he had started it on his own site I don't he would have as many comments as he's been getting (34 on the current post, 40 on the previous one), especially after only being around for a month.

I've found it quite interesting to look through the comments on Ferris's older diaries. I was expecting to see plenty of environmental paranoids and people decrying space tourism as a meaningless toy for the uber-rich, but overall the comments are quite reasonable.

Posted by Neil H. at June 19, 2007 07:12 PM

in short: the "recent diaries" aggregate on the right helps visibility to hordes of frontpage visitors. and another feature: he might be voted to frontpage.
that, and the fact the site gets the traffic it gets, means relatively large audience from the day 0.
proven by amount of comments in each of his Revolution diaries.
In contrast, HobbySpace has been there since forever, has its loyal reader base and is THE site to visit for the news, but it spawns comment threads only on rare occassions, and usually centered around certain narrow topic. Whereas Kos comments are more like "wow, theres space out there ? Whoda thunk!" which seems to indicate "fresh" readers on space topics.

Posted by kert at June 20, 2007 12:19 AM

Rand I have to laugh about your comments about not wanting to link to Ferris's blog Daily Kos.

If it weren't for the nature of the politics and other odd things you post I'd point people here to your blog.

It cuts both ways.

Posted by Keith Cowing at June 20, 2007 05:43 AM

It cuts both ways.

Apparently not, Keith, since I did in fact link to Ferris, but you don't link to me.

Posted by Rand Simberg at June 20, 2007 05:57 AM

How often will you link to Ferris Rand?

I don't link here because it is mostly non-space stuff and the content is overtly partisan and regularly intolerant of Democrats and others.

Posted by Keith Cowing at June 20, 2007 06:09 AM

There is nothing wrong with attempting to introduce the subject of space to folks who ordinarily don't understand it or even approve of it, so I have no problem with Ferris posting at Kos. Even when he says this: " BTW, a warning if you want to respond to Mark Whittington in the comments section - he is firmly of the belief that liberals/progressives/Democrats who support manned spaceflight, space development, and space colonization are freaks of nature, despite plenty of other evidence."

I'd love to hear the evidence that goes beyond the odd left wing office holder/activist who happens to support space.

Posted by MarkWhittington at June 20, 2007 06:18 AM

How often will you link to Ferris Rand?

I don't know. I suppose as often as I see that he's written something worth linking to. It's the first time I've seen his blog. Whenever I get around to updating my space blogroll to the left, I'll add it.

I don't link here because it is mostly non-space stuff and the content is overtly partisan and regularly intolerant of Democrats and others.

You could still link to the space posts (that's one of the reason to have permalinks for individual posts). I don't care if you don't link to the blog itself. Well, actually, I don't care if you link to anything. Links should be for the purpose of informing your readership and improving the quality and usefulness of your web site, not to make me happy.

Posted by Rand Simberg at June 20, 2007 06:33 AM

I look at Kos sometimes -- even have an account, but that's mostly because people who don't have an account get all postings fully displayed. I see too much drivel that way.

It is possible to talk to people on the liberal-left side about things like space, technology and even some libertarian stuff. It does help to listen to them and begin discussions by acknowledging their viewpoints, especially when there is some truth to their ideas. Last year I managed to get some very liberal people to condemn Ralph Nader just by showing them a blog where some liberals got screwed over royally by easily recognizably dysfunctional drug regulations.

I recently started a blog myself, even though I post here and a few other places occasionally. I might publicize my blog a bit when I've got a sufficient body of postings that I want to draw attention to. I have told a few people about the blog, but that's mostly to let people know I've started one and that they can comment on my pieces.

So, yes, I think posting on Kos can be helpful to a variety of things. Just like posting here. Although, I will admit, I like Rand's blog better than the Daily Kos. The signal to noise ratio is much better here.

For what it's worth, I do claim to be an independent broad minded centrist.

Posted by Chuck Divine at June 20, 2007 07:53 AM

Rand: I hate to link to Kos

Oh, why is that? :D

Mark Whittington: I'd love to hear the evidence that goes beyond the odd left wing office holder/activist who happens to support space.

A brief overview of the community and history illustrates a trend, IMHO:

-The Planetary Society is markedly progressive in outlook, which reflects the character of its founder, and is by far the largest space advocacy organization.
-The National Space Society is more of a full-spectrum organization, but has many prominent liberals/progressives on its Board of Governors and in its membership.
-While I don't have much information on SF authors' politics, judging by their work it seems clear liberals/progressives enjoy a substantial advantage in both quantity and quality of space science fiction: Asimov, Clarke, Kim Stanley Robinson, John Barnes, Iain Banks, David Brin, Peter Hamilton, Stephen Baxter, and Brian Aldiss come immediately to mind.
-It can't be overstated how much the humanist utopia of Star Trek inspired generations of people to get involved in space fields and activism. That vision of hope struck a nerve that no other SF television series has come close to matching.
-A liberal president was responsible for Apollo, another liberal president carried it through to realization, and a conservative president cancelled it.
-The only astronauts in politics are Democrats.
-Elon Musk originally left South Africa to avoid military service, and aside from leading the current rocket pack, is pushing electric cars, clean energy, and financed "Thank You for Smoking."

I appreciate the contributions of libertarians to the movement, but they are a minority. Most of us don't care if government agencies or corporations are the primary agents of space settlement as long as it happens.

Posted by Brian Swiderski at June 20, 2007 12:25 PM

A liberal president was responsible for Apollo, another liberal president carried it through to realization, and a conservative president cancelled it.

No, Johnson canceled Apollo. In fact it was Nixon who "carried it through realization," since all the moon landing missions were flown during his presidency.

-The only astronauts in politics are Democrats.

Jack Swigert and Jack Schmitt were/are Republicans.

I don't have time to deal with the rest of your tendentious fantasies.

Posted by Rand Simberg at June 20, 2007 01:00 PM

Oh, I just realized. Maybe you were talking about Johnson when you said a conservative president canceled it. Nixon was certainly no conservative. He's the one who instituted wage and price controls.

Posted by Rand Simberg at June 20, 2007 01:14 PM

"zillions of space blogs"

So far, I have 189 of them on the Space Blogroll; if anyone has links to space or astronomy blogs not already on the blogroll, then contact me.

Posted by Ed Minchau at June 20, 2007 05:56 PM

Rand: No, Johnson canceled Apollo.

Actually, Harry Truman canceled it. Jesus, Rand.

Jack Swigert and Jack Schmitt were/are Republicans.

I stand corrected. Only the majority of astronauts in politics are Democrats.

I don't have time to deal with the rest of your tendentious fantasies.

Translation: You can't find anything wrong with the rest of what I said, but acknowledging it would be the out of the question.

Oh, I just realized. Maybe you were talking about Johnson when you said a conservative president canceled it.

Do you have some kind of compulsive disorder that causes you to say everything ass-backwards?

Nixon was certainly no conservative. He's the one who instituted wage and price controls.

Conservatives are only against control held by liberals. When they themselves are in power, everything is on the table.

Posted by Brian Swiderski at June 20, 2007 11:06 PM

Like that great socialist Ronald Reagan (g).

You are also forgetting the role of Congressional liberals, like Proxmire and Mondale, in truncating Apollo.

Posted by MarkWhittington at June 21, 2007 03:34 AM

Actually, Harry Truman canceled it. Jesus, Rand.

Brian, you're welcome to flaunt your ignorance of space history here, just as you do your ignorance of much else, but you can't expect to not be corrected. Lyndon Johnson cancelled Apollo, in 1967. This is an historical fact. No more hardware was procured after that time, and the program used up what was available until they ran out in the early seventies.

Nixon could have restarted it, but there was no political purpose or pressure to do so, since it had achieved its objective of beating the Soviets to the moon. He instead initiated the Shuttle program.

And as for the "majority" of astronaut politicians being Democrats, surely you can name them all, to back up this amusing (and absurd, and pointless) assertion?

Posted by Rand Simberg at June 21, 2007 05:16 AM

This same argument again ?
http://www.transterrestrial.com/archives/005471.html

http://history.nasa.gov/SP-4221/ch2.htm
Johnson put budget squeeze Apollo Applications, but nowhere in here its evident that it was killed precisely in 1967, and by the previous thread it was Webb who refused to order further long lead items for Saturn V in 1968.

As to who exactly "killed Apollo" ? It was apparently a lynch mob. i can understand their feelings.

Posted by kert at June 21, 2007 09:40 AM

Brian: Not disagreeing that there are a lot of individual Democrats, liberals and even progressives involved in space-related organizations, activism, entrepreneurial activity, etc., but I think you overstate the case a bit.

There are certainly a lot of leftish sci-fi authors, but your list is unaccountably missing many key figures in so-called "hard SF" - a category generally taken to subsume space travel/exploration-centered tales. A few that come immediately to mind include Robert Heinlein, Poul Anderson, Gordon Dickson, Jerry Pournelle, Larry Niven and David Drake. They, and many other sci-fi notables are decidedly not men (or women) of the left.

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with these bodies of work. Perhaps you have sampled same and simply didn't like them. I can certainly understand that. I'm not a big fan of Brin, Aldiss or most other lefty sci-fi authors, such as Harlan Ellison (though some of his early stuff was good) or another Brit often tied to Aldiss, Michael Moorcock. I do have a soft spot for old-style socialist Mack Reynolds because he was such a good writer and didn't portray the suffocating welfare-statism of his Negative Income Tax-based future - which he seems to have assumed was inevitable - as an unalloyed utopia.

One might also point out that, while he was "liberal" by the standards of his day, JFK's rhetoric and policies, if evaluated against the political taxonomy of the present day, would fall into the Conservative Republican ambit.

Then there is the case of LBJ. He was also a liberal of his own day, but is anathema to 40 years worth of reflexively anti-war progressives including nearly everyone of consequence in the modern Democractic Party and the even more leftish parts of the current progressive movement.

Don't know anything about Mr. Musk's politics, but I know that his fellow PayPal founders were making fairly radically libertarian noises in public back in the days before the sale to eBay. Perhaps Elon has a lifetime subscription to The Nation, but I wouldn't, personally, be willing to bet the rent on that based on known past associations and my more or less complete ignorance of his personal political views.

Posted by Dick Eagleson at June 21, 2007 10:36 PM

Only if you're fooled into thinking Big Government Republicans like Bush are conservatives.

"Ask only what you can do for the country?" It doesn't get more collectivist than that.

Posted by Edward Wright at June 22, 2007 12:50 AM

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