This story, about parents who believe that discipline doesn't work, reminds me of the Simpsons episode about the young Ned Flanders and his (speaking of the sixties) hippie/beatnik parents:

Dr. Foster: Would you please tell your son to stop?

Ned's Dad: We can't do it, man! That's discipline! That's like tellin' Gene Krupa not to go [starts banging on the desk] "boom boom bam bam bam, boom boom bam bam bam, boom boom boom bam ba ba ba ba, da boo boo tss!"

Ned's Dad: We don't believe in rules, like, we gave them up when we started livin' like freaky beatniks!

Dr. Foster: You don't believe in rules, yet you want to control Ned's anger.

Ned's Mom: Yeah. You gotta help us, Doc. We've tried nothin' and we're all out of ideas.

Overly strict parents and overly permissive parents tend to create a dynamic flip-flopping between generations. Children angry at permissive parenting can become excessively strict with their own kids and children angry at strict parenting can become excessively permissive parents.

If the hippie beatnik parents of the 1960s were too permissive (and I agree they were/are) perhaps it was because of the parenting styles of the 1950s.

Finding the proper balance between authoritative (Because I'm the Dad and that is that!) and permissive (Hey, whatever feels good is okay with me!) is not easy.

Link to the story goes back to Transterrestrial instead.

I think Bill White is right. The Greatest Generation dealt with the depression and WW2 and didn't want their kids to deal with such hardship so they spoiled them. The result was the hippies.

My parents went through some pretty trying times themselves in their childhoods and young ad ulthoods, although I came along late enough in their lives that they were pretty grown up themselves by the time they had a little girl to deal with.

The thing I recall the most about their parenting style, and an example I hope to emulate if I'm ever fortunate enough to be a parent myself, is that I was always expected to "talk them into it." I couldn't just ask for ruggelah, I had to make a case about why I should have them. In retrospect, my mother obviously made them for me to eat with her, but she made me go through the reasoning process anyway.

By the time I was 16, I was arguing like a rabbi for things like "should I get a car and what sort should I have" and so on. So there was always a bit of work I had to do for anything in our house, and various chores that I was responsible for, but I think my remarkable parents did a decent job of balancing indulgence with rigor.

Thank you, if you two are reading this.

I think the babyboomers were different because they were the first generation in front of the TV. Now, Mom and Dad had to compete with Madison Avenue for their kids.

Ned's parents must have been the very first beatniks. In season 10, Ned admits to Homer that he is 60 years old.

I think people are remembering too much the foreground and not the background.

My parents were not overly strict or lenient. I was lovingly instructed while growing up. For the record my father was an accountant and my mother a stay at home mom until I reached high school. There were a lot of books in my home. I was given toys such as chemistry sets, erector sets and stimulating games. My father taught me how to play chess. I was in the Boy Scouts. Politically Mom and Dad were Eisenhower Republicans.

Here's just one of the changes we were put through, though. My father was Rutgers class of 1935; my grandfather 1890 (that's right; teen marriages do not run in the family). I was Rutgers class of 1967. Rutgers was small and friendly in my father's and grandfather's day. Over a year ago I heard a talk by Milton Viorst, Rutgers class of 1951. His class numbered 400, about half veterans. Virtually all graduated in four years. My class entered in 1963 at 1700 -- over a four fold increase. Only 1100 of us graduated in 1967. Those of us who were physics majors thought we were being cheated somehow.

There was a sea change in American life in the 50s and 60s. Quite a bit of the rebellion you might remember -- or have read about -- was, in good part, a reaction to changes that weren't all that well thought out.

One thing quite a few engineers believe in -- with good reason -- is build a little, test a little, build some more, test some more, repeat until you have something really solid and good. It's too bad too many of the changes that happened in the 1960s weren't done that way. We're still paying for it. And some people on top are still blaming the rebels rather than ill thought out changes.

For the record, I spent two years in the SF area in the late 60s -- courtesy of the U.S. Army, doing "physics research." I do have some very funny stories to tell. Buy me a beer some time at a conference and I'll tell them. Let's put it this way -- I was very glad the Army didn't try to enforce hair length regulations. They had caught on enough to realize that made life entirely too difficult for people off the military site.

I think the babyboomers were different because they were the first generation in front of the TV. Now, Mom and Dad had to compete with Madison Avenue for their kids.

Indeed.

I recently took my six year old to Home Depot with me when I needed a new Sawzall for a project at home.

Walking in the store, he said "Daddy I want a Coke. And look, its Tony Stewart!"

Sure enough, right by the front door was a pop machine with a luminous photo of Tony Stewart holding a bottle of Coca Cola, the driver all decked out in his logo encrusted NASCAR suit, Home Depot logos being the most prominent of course.

With reverence, my son said, "Daddy, Tony Stewart drives the #20 car for Home Depot."

Yup, our grandparents never faced the meme maelstrom that is modern America.

= = =

And there are those at NASA think they can hire a few fading celebrity spokespeople to instill a passion for space exploration.

Ha! No way.

NASCAR does not PAY FOR media exposure, they SELL media exposure and now even my six year old knows all about NASCAR. (First via "Cars" - - that Pixar movie which actually is a pretty good movie.)

I can't get to the study. I would like to see the differential between the parents who spank and those whose highest point of escalation is yelling.

Seeing as I don't have children yet I'm certain of the answer. “time-outs,” removal of privileges, yelling and spanking should all be in your parental arsenal. Spanking shouldn't be your first resort but it should be off the table. Set the rules and be consistent. All of this in with the understanding that all kids are different and different tactics are required for optimal results. The key is to not give up and keep expecting results.

As to how I will combat media and cultural influence someday with our kids? Wow, I'm clueless. I'm confident we'll be able to handle in the house behavior, less confident once they take one step out the door.

My nephews are in their teenage years now and one of them matter of factly told his dad that paying attention and working in class would get in the way of his social life. Good luck, bro! He's a good father, I'm sure he'll work it out. But, I'm glad it's not me.

At this point, were it not for my adamant wife, I would be more than willing to forgo the parenting experience.

A thread on "spanking" will surely engender a flame war. :-)

Anyway, here goes -- IMHO spanking is sometimes necessary (but rarely) and if such a need arises it will be because the parents failed to impose effective (non corporeal) discipline during the weeks, months and years leading up to the situation.

IMHO, good pro-active parents can pre-empt and avoid situations in which spanking becomes necessary, But note, I am not saying "never, ever" as some do.

Here is a terrific resource:

http://www.amazon.com/How-Talk-Kids-Will-Listen/dp/0380811960

So, are these parenting oscillations being damped or accelerated, IYO?

My kids were raised in the same child rearing system I was raised under. A semi-benevolent dictatorship. What my father said was law. Break the law, get a swat on the arse with his hand. By the age of 5 or 6 you pretty much knew the law. Total swats probably a half dozen. My mother used her bedroom slipper. Again, total swats half a dozen. Never brutal, just enough "pain" to impress on us the importance of doing the right thing.

I raised my sons just like that. I don't remember putting a hand to them but a few times, it just wasn't necessary.

Both my sons married women who "lean left" in the child rearing category, as they were raised. My grandkids are a handful to everyone. But not to me. They've all learned that Poppy don't play that. I don't have any trouble with them and they spent the last 2 summers with me, we all enjoyed it.

They are already planning to come here to from RI and GA this summer, they like it here. Kids want limits, it makes them feel safe and protected.