Here's a video of the recent PBS "debate" between the "Loose Change" wackos, and the Popular Mechanics editors on the 9/11 conspiracy theories. Do these people really think that reasonable people are going to be convinced by continual accusations that their debating opponents are "liars"? This seems to be a much more prevalent tactic of the left. More projection, I guess.

Hats off to the Popular Mechanics guys. I would have had a hard time keeping my cool in that situation. A lot of interesting techniques used by the film makers to draw attention away from a real debate.

Do these people really think that reasonable people are going to be convinced by continual accusations that their debating opponents are "liars"?

Two possible answers to your question:

1. Yes, they really think that. After all, they think they ARE themselves reasonable, and THEY got convinced -- so they can convince anyone "who has an open mind".

2. They do not care whether they actually convince anyone or not -- since their greatest need is to feel superior to "the sheeple" and to pride on the sense of persecution, getting too many people onto their side actually diminishes their self-worth.

Personally I think (1) is more likely, but (2) is not very improbable. It may be some kind of combination.

BTW, who came with the name "Loose Change"? I think it is hilariously apt.

I don't like trying to read people's minds, but of the two scenarios Ilya proposes above, I think (2) for some of these people, the most probable. I base this on my experience with conspiracy theory devotees. The need to feel superior to the "sheeple" seems to be the most important thing in their lives.

I do love how Democracy Now reports bills the "Loose Change" people as "the 911 Truth Movement", and PM as "the Popular Mechanics Propagandists".

At least they're not trying to polarize the viewing audience before they even have a chance to see and make up their own minds for themselves...

The only thing better is Google's system of allowing viewers to add their own labels... Seems that the majority of the 8,000+ viewers have found these labels to be a little specious, at best. "Loose Screws vs. Science"... classic.

In order to make and believe a movie like “lose change” it is necessary, but not sufficient to be stupid. Being stupid allows them to say and believe things like hydrocarbons burn at ~1100C (I thinks that what he said). A quick look at my thermodynamics text shows that in fact the adiabatic flame temperature is about 2000C. This fact doesn’t really prove anything by itself, it just illustrates that once you’re stupid anything is possible.

Similar examples exist in economics when politicians advocate government jobs as a way to help the economy. When you’re sufficiently stupid reality doesn’t matter.

I'm actually going to be bold enough to step up and defend some of the so-called 'loose change' crowd. A surprising number of my contemporaries are 'buying in' to 9/11 conspiracy theories, and--while I continue to think they're very, very wrong--I always attempt to address them on the merits of their arguments, some of which aren't merely "crazy", but require a bit of examination.

Almost every refutation I've heard of the 9/11 conspiracy theory has been an ad hominem attack on the 'theorist'. Cheers to pop.mech for at least respecting the opposition enough to address the arguments themselves.

Do these people really think that reasonable people are going to be convinced by continual accusations that their debating opponents are "liars"?

They do think this will work. They've actually borrowed the tactic from the Democrat platform of the last 5 years, and of the next 6 or 8 years.

"Bush lied, people died", just encompasses the WTC, the Pentagon and several of our embassies too, for these clowns anyway.

From the video:

David Dunbar: "In fact, Underwriter's Laboratories does not certify structural steel."

Dylan Avery: "Oh, ok." *laughs*

Jason Bermas: "I would disagree with that."

Well, okay, you can disagree with it. But it's a fact, not an opinion.

As Tom said, kudos to PM for keeping their cool. I'm not sure how I would have reacted to Bermas practically yelling at me within mere inches of my face.

If I were Avery and Bermas, I certainly wouldn't use this "debate" as my calling card. Of course, the target audience for Avery and Bermas are the kind of people who react positively to people yelling and screaming about the government, and hanging their entire argument on a single sound byte from an inaccurate source, rather than talking calmly aobut things.

Wow. Just, wow...

Almost every refutation I've heard of the 9/11 conspiracy theory has been an ad hominem attack on the 'theorist'

Well, what do you expect? Some theories deserve derision, not respect. If someone comes up to me and wants to tell me about the 'Jewish Conspiracy' I'm going to tell him to f*ck off, not debate him.

Some issues are beyond reason or respect.

Rupert,

Point taken. Nevertheless, I still believe that we get further with people by addressing their arguments, not relegating or ignoring them. There are a *lot* of people who believe this--personally, I'd rather acknowledge and debate that.

"Almost every refutation I've heard of the 9/11 conspiracy theory has been an ad hominem attack on the 'theorist'."

As I have stated before, childish delusion does not entreat the same consideration as adult reality. Some things are so absurd that they deserve a hostile response.

"Extraoridnary claims require extraordinary evidence."

so far, I have not seen one scintillia of anyting approching even the level or ordinary from these loose screw nutjobs.

childish delusion does not entreat the same consideration as adult reality. Some things are so absurd that they deserve a hostile response.

At least insofar as the Pop/loose debate is concerned, I'm almost inclined to agree with that. I'm absolutely amazed by how calm and rational the pop.mech gents were, in the face of such immaturity.

Grant,

I dunno. My experience has been that people who believe 9/11 conspiracy theories are knee deep in irrationality. I suppose that ad hominem assaults won't help the situation, but calm, rational reason doesn't help either. They're like religious fundamenalists. They believe no matter what. But I'll allow that you are a better person than I am. :)

I'm absolutely amazed by how calm and rational the pop.mech gents were, in the face of such immaturity.

The older guy with the coffee mug seemed to be projecting mild amusement. As in 'Jesus, these guys are stupid( sip )'.

I had no idea this movement had so much 'credibiltity'. I remember watching about 5 minutes of this movie months ago, and dismissed it as a product of our awful educational system and Adobe After Effects. But then again, there's actually people who believe that the American moon landings were filmed in Studio A in the New Mexico desert!

But then again, there's actually people who believe that the American moon landings were filmed in Studio A in the New Mexico desert!

I wouldn't be surprised to find that they're the same people...

Yep Rand,

You can read the comments at youtube and find out they are one in the same.

Irony is that the US government is so expert it can pull off conspiracy after cospiracy sucessfully but we could not land a man on the moon because of those pesky Van Allen belts.

The pop. mech. guys have amazing control. If I had to sit with those two needlebrains and discuss this I would have had to have given them both three-stooges pokes to the eyes. doink.

Well, like to say one thing keep people calling it PBS, its not pbs dunno maybe broadcasted on a few pbs channels but Democracy now, is very liberal show that , wouldn't want goverment funding and they don't want goverment funds afraid it may affect their views.

Now on the pop mech guys have to give them props on , the restraint too bad they couldn't bring clips or what ever evidence they had backing them up, they had the Loose change guys with there video and what ever evidence/clips they put in and then their words, while the pm just words.

Remember seeing a good part of Loose Change 6 months ago as my roomate in college (a pretty smart engineer) watched it, i sat first few minutes stomaching the crud about Bin Laden meeting cia and american military doctors, then started vocally when they started comparing wtc 7 to demolition and then the cargo plane quote, just let my roomate have it for watchin the crap and he goes 'just watch don't have to believe' think I tuned it out shortly after the steel dosen't melt till 2000 but leaving out the fact it losses alot of strength well below it melting point.

Best part I could see of the debate, was when the PM guys called out the researcher on calling people liars, and he goes 'I an't calling anyone liars, but you sir are a liar'. Think the guy could of been a Clinton defense lawyer right then.

This seems to be a much more prevalent tactic of the left.

Yes. On the right we just call our opponents unpatriotic, terrorists or nazis. That's much better than accusing them of being liars.

Chris Mann...you like when Dick Durbin (D-Illinois) compared American soldiers to Nazis?

I really haven't been exposed to very much of the "9/11 deniers", but some odd comments from my brother (who tends to believe such things) concerning 9/11 made me look a bit deeper into on the 5th anniversary of the attack.

While looking into things a bit deeper I came across this site that does a very credible job of ripping the accusations made in Loose Change to shreds point-by-point. Basically, it takes the Loose Change video and places sub-titles throughout the movie with good counter arguments to every single point raised by the deniers.

Even while watching this "corrected" version of Loose Change I couldn't help but feel a growing hatred in myself for 9/11 deniers and their world view. We really don't know what went on with the other three 9/11 flights, but what these people do and say about the flight 93 victims and the calls they placed to loved ones before being killed makes my stomach turn. I'm ashamed I'm the same species as these people. In some ways they are worse than the 9/11 hijackers themselves.

Chris Mann...you like when Dick Durbin (D-Illinois) compared American soldiers to Nazis?

With very few exceptions, I think that both sides of American politics are behaving in an entirely reprehensible manner.

One side claims our own government staged the most lethal terrorist attack in the nation's history, Mr. Mann. Do you agree with that?

It's funny watching those arrogant, rude punks speak 'truithenss' to power.

They are too stupid to see they read like a self-paradoy.

Booo the link is dead. Anyone remember what the video was called?

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