Transterrestrial Musings

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Fascinating. Rand Simberg suggests that the idea the Chinese might behave badly is delusional. He does not say why this is so. That tells me a lot.

Posted by Mark R. Whittington at November 9, 2005 04:46 AM

Oh good! Let's investigate this.

Allow me to present a scenario.

By all means.

The United States follows the suggestions of Jon, Rand, and others and stops the NASA return to the Moon.

The US follows the suggestions of Jon, Rand, and the others and allows private industry to reach the moon. NASA looks on. Perhaps they're smarter at this time and help fund private efforts.

About 2020 the Chinese land a manned expedition

2020??? I can't comment here because I'm laughing too hard.

and declares that they will now, under the authority of the UN,

In their infinite wisdom making China one of the wise members of the board of Human Rights.

serve as stewards of the moon and its resources to make certain that certain entities do not "exploit them" and deny them to the peoples of the world, the common heritage of whom they are.

IF China lands on the moon after NASA somehow manages to fund a successful mission, they will STILL claim stewardship, being that the moon belongs to no one, or everyone, and the UN should be the steward, under Chinese direction.

Let me propose a scenario...
Mark READS Rand's posts and realizes that Rand never said he wanted to stop NASA from going to the moon. No, forget it, this scenario is just as unbelievable as the other one.

Posted by Mac at November 9, 2005 05:44 AM

Rand Simberg suggests that the idea the Chinese might behave badly is delusional.

No, Mark. I never said such a thing.

Once again, you reign as king of the strawman argument. Work on your reading comprehension.

Posted by Rand Simberg at November 9, 2005 05:55 AM

All I will ask for today is for Rand to present a succinct overview of his plan to make America a spacefaring nation.

Treat me "as if" I am a remedial reader and DO NOT refer to me to Rand's (or anyone else's) other writings, elsewhere.

The explantion should be entirely self contained (like one of Michael Mealling's elevator pitches) and should explain precisely how the alt-space community will make America a spacefaring nation.

Posted by Bill White at November 9, 2005 07:00 AM

So far I'm not impressed, Rand keeps saying that he didn't say what he said. The fact of the matter is that his position would prevent NASA from reaching the Moon because, as Bill has pointed out, Rand has not another alternative. All he has are complaints and insults. Rand goes on to say that he doesn't think that the idea of the Chinese behaving badly is "delusional" and "hilarious" after he just did. This is why discussing anything with him can be an exercise in exasperation. How he expects anyone to take him seriously is beyond me.

Posted by Mark R. Whittington at November 9, 2005 07:34 AM

Rand keeps saying that he didn't say what he said.

No, Mark. I keep saying that I didn't say what you fantasize that I said.

I have never said that NASA should not go back to the Moon. I have never said that the Chinese might not behave badly. I have, in fact, called their government "odious."

These are your delusions, not reality. Get help.

Posted by Rand Simberg at November 9, 2005 08:08 AM

I keep saying that I didn't say what you fantasize that I said.

Yeah, yeah, yeah... sorry Rand but we have heard that one before and before and before. And, often, when it is analysed in detail we find that at the heart of things is one of your "rare" moments where you have not been clear on what you meant to say.

I'm with Bill.

Consider, please, for a moment my grasp of American English is as pitiful as you always complain and provide us with an overview of what you think.

And, like recently, I'm prepared to put money down that you won't or you'll bottle out of actually making a statement you'll have to stand by.

Posted by Daveon at November 9, 2005 08:34 AM

Rand, there you go again. I can only go by what you post, not by what you think may be a hidden meaning. You've said what you said, so take some responsibility for it and please refrain from wild insults. It should be beneath you.

Posted by Mark R Whittington at November 9, 2005 08:35 AM

The Chinese space program needs to overcome some pretty serious political hurdles IMHO. I wonder what China's risk adverse leadership will do when some really embarrassing accident occurs. My current guess is that the political backlash from any accident will damage the program more than the actual accident would and there'll be at least one such accident before any actual landing on the Moon occurs. Also, the launch rate is too low. I don't see the kind of progress (IMHO of course) that will place Chinese astronauts on the Moon in fifteen years.

Second, the Moon is a rather large place. It seems to me that if you don't want grief from a bunch of hypothetical Chinese government employees and their missiles, then don't go near them. Even if the Chinese get there first, they'll just be able to pick a few of the nicer locations.

Posted by Karl Hallowell at November 9, 2005 08:41 AM

Sam's straw man:

No one goes to the Moon for 13 years. The Russians, the Chinese, the Indians and US alt.spacers compete for some kind of "2nd group to the Moon prize" posted by X-Prize, Bigelow, me or someone else with an expiration a year or so before NASA's (delayed) return date. Space Adventures and the Russians manage to win it with their proven orbiter technology plus a new lander that was financed by the first ticket sale. The second seat going to a Chinese winner of a skill game.

Posted by Sam Dinkin at November 9, 2005 08:45 AM

I can only go by what you post

Apparently, you can't, since I didn't post either of the two things that you claim I did, and you cannot point to any place in which I did.

Posted by Rand Simberg at November 9, 2005 08:49 AM

God Bless you, Sam Dinkin. Capitalist to the core! And that really is a good thing.

Posted by Bill White at November 9, 2005 08:56 AM

Karl, a missile from a Chinese base could reach any landing site on the surface of the Moon. Sam, interesting idea. How much would this "lunar prize" be? Frankly, I'm rather dubious Prizes are pretty good for stimulating technology development, but I think something like going to the Moon is a little out of reach. Rand, don't be absurd. You and I both know what you posted and where. And I don't seem to be the only one to take note of your tendency to post something, then deny doing it when people call you on it and then insult people when they call you on that. Please stop it.

Posted by Mark R. Whittington at November 9, 2005 09:07 AM

"The Chinese build up a small base at the lunar south pole. However, let us say that a plucky alt.space firm decides to ignore the Chinese announcement and, having solved the problem of manned space flight to the Moon, lands a ship at the lunar north pole.

The Chinese tell the alt.spacers to get themselves away from the Moon as they have not filled out the proper paperwork (which is long, complicated, and impossible for anyone the Chinese do not want on the Moon to comply with.) Fail to leave and a ground to ground missile will take your space vehicle out. Then you will die.

Sensation on Earth. A protest is filed at the UN. China, Russia, and France veto the protest in the Security Council.

The plucky alt.spacers have to pack up and leave. China owns the Moon defacto, though not dejure.

Addendum 4: Rand Simberg thinks that the idea that the Chinese might behave badly in space is--well--delusional. He doesn't say why, which tells me quite a bit."

As an addendum to Mark's Scnario:

Being stymied by Chinese hegemony within cislunar space, the alt.spacers then divert their attentions outward to the asteroids and having mastered that while China is diverted with its lunar interests, start flinging relatively small rocks down the gravity well in a pearl harbor x 10,000 at their chinese oppressors and obliterate China as a world and otherworldly power in one stunning fell swoop.

Attention all planets of the Solar Federation!!!! We have resumed control...we have resumed control....

Posted by Mike Puckett at November 9, 2005 09:16 AM

You and I both know what you posted and where.

Well, apparently I know what I posted and where, but you don't seem to. Sorry, but I don't share your delusions. If you want people to believe them with you, you have to actually, you know, prove it? By providing actual quotes from me to back them up?

You haven't, because you can't. It's obviously easier to simply repeat falsehoods.

Posted by Rand Simberg at November 9, 2005 09:30 AM

Mike, an interesting idea. A happy ending all around. Of course, without a government presence in space to help defend the property rights of the alt.spacers, I can see it "ending in tears" as well. Rand, thanks for making my point again.

Posted by Mark R. Whittington at November 9, 2005 09:35 AM

An "Anglo-Diaspora" to the asteroid belt to escape Chinese hegemony in cis-lunar space? For the record, I have started that novel before I saw Mike Puckett's post.

Of course, Firefly/Serenity is an allegory for that exact scenario. ;-)

Posted by Bill White at November 9, 2005 09:47 AM

Bill, of course that would mean that the alt.spacers start a government, with a fleet, taxes, law enforcement, courts and so on. It would be an ironic development all around, but I could see it happening.

Firefly/Serenity is a kind of cautionary tale. Remember that the Browncoats lost and the Sino-American Alliance triumphed.

Posted by Mark R. Whittington at November 9, 2005 09:55 AM

Firefly/Serenity is a kind of cautionary tale. Remember that the Browncoats lost and the Sino-American Alliance triumphed.

Posted by Mark R. Whittington at November 9, 2005 09:57 AM

Firefly/Serenity is a kind of cautionary tale. Remember that the Browncoats lost and the Sino-American Alliance triumphed.

Posted by Mark R. Whittington at November 9, 2005 10:01 AM

alt.spacers start a government, with a fleet, taxes, law enforcement, courts and so on.

With the ultimate in objectivist society - not even air and water would need to be common property!

Freedom indeed ;)

Posted by Daveon at November 9, 2005 10:01 AM

Daveon, that would be an interesting experiment. The question, though, is could this new country successfully resist if a real government (i.e. one that can command resources and military strength at will) decides to knock them over? That would be another interesting experiment, albeit costly in lives and treasure.

Posted by Mark R. Whittington at November 9, 2005 10:05 AM

Cool.

Less than 5 minutes ago the statist, socializt U.S. Post Office delivered a parcel from amazon.com with "Firefly: The Complete Series" inside.

Like I said. Cool.

Posted by Bill White at November 9, 2005 10:14 AM

"An "Anglo-Diaspora" to the asteroid belt to escape Chinese hegemony in cis-lunar space? For the record, I have started that novel before I saw Mike Puckett's post.

Of course, Firefly/Serenity is an allegory for that exact scenario. ;-)"

But does you novel end with a heaping plate of fiery justice like mine ;-)

Here is my overly dramatic contribution to your book effort:

Like rocks from an overpass, this is how Chinese cislunar hegemony ends, not with a whimper, but a terrifying scream as the sky falls in on their world. From the dark abyss of deep space, their empire ground into the dust of history within the bilnk of an eye. Like a interplanetary bull smashing a delicate ming vase, no quater is offered or given by the unfeeling rocky assassin. Hell has a new name and it is 1999 RA32.

Speaking of irony, I just had General Zso's chicken for lunch.

Posted by Mike Puckett at November 9, 2005 10:31 AM

Bill, of course that would mean that the alt.spacers start a government, with a fleet, taxes, law enforcement, courts and so on.

Yet another of Mark's delusions--that all alt-spacers are unalterably opposed to governments, in space or otherwise.

It must be very strange to live in a cartoon world, Mark. Are the colors brighter there?

And I see that, as I predicted, you remain unable to substantiate your other false claims about my statements, or beliefs.

Posted by Rand Simberg at November 9, 2005 10:32 AM

"Yet another of Mark's delusions--that all alt-spacers are unalterably opposed to governments, in space or otherwise."

Huh? Now Rand is doing what he accuses others of doing. Very strange.

In fact, I was suggesting the exact opposite. That despite a certain hostility toward government on the part of the alt.spacers (not unalterable opposition) that the establishment of their own society somewhere in space would be necessity lead to a government. Probably a stronger one than many today would like, IMHO.

Posted by Mark R. Whittington at November 9, 2005 10:37 AM

That despite a certain hostility toward government on the part of the alt.spacers

Not hostility, Mark. Realism. That's what you remain unable to understand. But dream on.

Posted by Rand Simberg at November 9, 2005 10:39 AM

Speaking of irony, I just had General Zso's chicken for lunch.

Great name for the Terran flagship - The General Zso! Thanks! :-)

No, Mike I need sequels. That is why I cannot accept your ending, at least for now.

My heroine/protagonist is Lt. Darla Harb (Dar al Harb) a low ranking officer in the Terran Space Navy sent to crush those Anglo dogs who claimed Ceres and disrepected a Chinese survey mission. She is 3/4 Persian with a Lebanese Christian grandfather (hence the name Harb) and is the sole survivor when those same Anglo rebel dogs destroy the entire Terran fleet sent to Ceres (in no small measure because of the arrogance of Admiral Zso.)

She survives because she was already suited up as the officer in charge of a damage control team when the General Zso was holed.

The Anglos capture her while drifting (sic - Rand's nanny nixed the spelling of flo-ting) unconscious in space and to her surprise treat her with respect and dignity, including asking her to play Cleopatra in a low gee staging of Shakespeare's Antony & Cleopatra.

As the book ends, she begs to stay at Ceres however the Anglo leaders show her enough of their technology which "hopefully" will persuade the Terran government to let them live in peace and they send her back to Earth.

Of course, the arrogant Chinese leaders refuse to listen and sequels ensue. . .

Posted by Bill White at November 9, 2005 11:08 AM

Would they then form the United Planets? Asked if he knew about the newly formed governmental body in space, the Secretary General of the UN says..."What's UP?"

Posted by Mac at November 9, 2005 12:55 PM

Mark,
You keep saying Rand wants NASA to abandon a return to the moon and you claim to know where he said it. I can not find it in his postings though I admit to being unobservant. Can you please point to a specific blog entry in which Rand says, approximately, "NASA should not return to the moon?"

Posted by Michael at November 9, 2005 08:18 PM

You keep saying Rand wants NASA to abandon a return to the moon and you claim to know where he said it. I can not find it in his postings though I admit to being unobservant. Can you please point to a specific blog entry in which Rand says, approximately, "NASA should not return to the moon?"

Don't irritate Mark with reality. He has much more important things to write about.

Posted by Rand Simberg at November 9, 2005 08:27 PM

Mark, you wrote:

Karl, a missile from a Chinese base could reach any landing site on the surface of the Moon.

How do they aim it? What defenses will their bases have from reprisal attacks?

Given your concerns, why are we talking about NASA with its long history of failure in manned space programs? I think a better approach would be a group of competing private commercial efforts backed by a significant US military presence in space much like many of the expeditions financed by the European powers in the days of the New World exploration.

Mark, your persistence is inspiring, but I really don't see the point of the current NASA plans. They're neither politically viable nor advance a genuine US presence in space. My take is the whole thing will be redesigned or scrapped once a new president moves in.

As you have noted before, there just isn't much of a commercial presence in space. IMHO that more than anything needs to change.

Posted by Karl Hallowell at November 9, 2005 11:10 PM

There is a cool Japanimated series called Mobile Suit Gundam Wing. It basically talks all about the colonists of NEO's that eventually find themselves at odds with the Terrans. The Colonists play their trump card which is create a collection of giant Mobile suit battle droid's made out of a indestructible material called Gundamium which they extract from their asteroids. The first few runs of the series were pretty interesting after a while they get kinda goofy.

Posted by Josh Reiter at November 10, 2005 10:46 AM

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