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How Can They Know?

There's a new study seemingly funded to (among other things) justify fishing with live bait, that purports to prove that worms on a hook feel no pain. It also says that lobsters don't suffer when put into a pot of boiling water. Apparently, the authors of the study think that these critters are too dumb to hurt.

Now, I don't know how to get into the head of a crustacean, let alone a night crawler, but I'm always a little suspicious of such firm pronouncements on subjects that truly are ultimately unknowable. They sound more like rationalization than science (like the old theory, that's unfortunately not all that old, that the medical profession had that newborns were also insensate to pain, and that their cries and wails during unanaesthetized surgical procedures was just a reflexive response). It may be that worms wiggle mindlessly, but I suspect that if a lobster being put in a pot of boiling water didn't mind, one wouldn't have to work so hard to keep them in it.

Posted by Rand Simberg at February 07, 2005 08:20 AM

Comments

bad link

Posted by asg at February 7, 2005 08:28 AM

Having attended my son's circumcision, I for one, would recommend a topical anesthetic. Boy, did he scream.

Posted by moe at February 7, 2005 08:44 AM

Mmmmm lobster.

Posted by Robert Cecrle at February 7, 2005 11:04 AM

"Now, I don't know how to get into the head of a crustacean..."

I think you use a fork and some kind a nutcracker-like device.

Posted by lmg at February 7, 2005 02:14 PM

It ought to be rather easy to set up a test to see how many lobsters voluntarily swim into a tank of boiling water.

Posted by billg at February 7, 2005 04:34 PM

After all, how do we know that Norwegian scientists (like the ones who did this study) can feel pain? I mean, sure, they ACT the way we would expect them to act if they were feeling pain -- you know, screaming, writhing, crying out "That hurts!" and so forth -- but how can we KNOW that these actions are not merely some kind of instinctive reflex, when Norwegian scientists do them?

Posted by Mark at February 7, 2005 09:13 PM

Its better to steam your lobsters to death then to dump them in boiling water. Of course there is always the grilled method which requires taking the live lobster, bisecting him straight down the middle with a sharp knife, and then thowing him on the hot grill. Flesh side down of course while the legs are still kickin'. In fact the more your lobster fights and struggles is a sign that it is a fresh and healthy lobster that will be more flavorful and juicy.

Posted by Josh "Hefty" Reiter at February 8, 2005 06:07 AM

A Google on "UCSD Cyborg Lobster" will give intresting results. Basically, a UCSD team managed to replace much of a Spiny Lobster's central nervous system with $20 of radio-shack parts.

A team led by Alan Selverston und Henry Abarbanel of UCSD interfaced lobster neurons with an artificial neural net consisting
of fourteen neurons. They removed some of the central neurons that are participating in the digestive process of the hummer. The lesion induced epileptic seizures that could be suppressed with the help of the artificial neurons.

See also a long article on my blog. Basically, lobsters are not so much animals as unthinking robots implemented in wetware.

So cerebrally, I *know* from good evidence that a lobster is more like a toaster than a person. Yet I draw the line at Lobster Sushi. I've seen it served, or rather, a lobster whose abdomen had been parboiled, while the head, feelers etc were still mobile. I consider anyone who could do that to a living creature someone who bears close watching.

I think it behooves us to be very conservative in our treatment of anything alive : treat it as sentient until proven otherwise.

Regarding newborns - I've seen the readings from brain sensors of very premature kids. The CNS really isn't developed enough to feel pain "properly" in some of them. But by the time they've completed 8 months of development, it can be.

My own son was 1 month premature, but his CNS was more fully developed than most.

The point is, we have reasonably good instruments that make this a matter of fact rather than opinion. But the instruments aren't perfect, and our understanding of how the mind works even less so. Unless there's really good reasons not to (trouble is, there usually are with newborns), analgesia should be mandatory.

Posted by Alan E Brain at February 8, 2005 08:00 AM


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