Here's someone who claims that Vietnam vets who said that they were spat on (and worse) upon return are liars.

Somehow, I suspect that it may suck to be him over the next few days.

This nut claims that even if some Vet has evidence and/or a credible recollection of being spat upon, it's still an urban legend?

No doubt he was a spitter, and now seeks to bury his shameful past in pseudoacademic crap.

Besides, I know it has to be true. Why? Because Oliver Stone told me its true. And I always believe everything Oliver Stone says.

But...but..the federal courts...I'm an expert...I'm always right!!

Uh huh. I was in the Air Force during the Vietnam War. My last duty station was Norton AFB, near Ontario, California. The overt hostility to people in the military in the surrounding community was so great that those of us who lived on base were ordered not to leave the base in uniform if at all possible. Out in the civilian world we were villified and had such verbal vitriol poured on us that I perfered staying on base to going to town for shopping or to the movies, or even just taking a day trip into the mountains. I was told I was evil, a killer and a tool of capitalist aggression. Gee, I thought I was earning my citizenship by following JFKennedy's dictum: "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." I discovered many so-called Democrats (as opposed to democrats) in private really don't like JFK.

While no one ever offered me physical violence, many of my fellow male airmen reported incidents, though not to the Base Commander, just amongst ourselves, because we didn't want to create even more trouble than we already had. A lot of nastiness was never written down or logged, but we vets haven't forgotten.
This John Llewellyn can't be sent back to that time to experience what happened first hand, and certainly the years blurr the hard edge of reality but this is one urban legend he is going to find out isn't legend.

The massive illogic of "it never happened (i.e., urban legend), but that doesn't mean it never happened" exhibits quite succinctly both the current state of the pseudo-disciplines in our universities and the reason why our press is in such a sad intellectual state.

This person and the fact that he spews such excrement so seriously provides yet another indication of all that is so very wrong with the left-wing neo-communist nutjobs of the Democratic Party. They are, by all indications, a collective of sociopaths.

Finally, the entire argument is altogether too close to those used by the "Holocaust never happened" wackos.

- Eric.

The guy's timing is poor, but his logic is sound. For instance:

"There is also a common-sense method for debunking this urban legend. One frequent test is the story's plausibility: how likely is it that the incident could have happened as described? Do we really believe that a "dirty hippie" would spit upon a fit and trained soldier? If such a confrontation had occurred, would that combat-hardened soldier have just ignored the insult?"

That is a good point. How likely is it that a "dirty hippie" is going to spit on a soldier--and not get the crap beaten out of him?

In fact, this urban legend was debunked a long time ago--see the reference to the 1988 paper.

There is one other story that Vietnam vets recount quite often, which is that they were in a helicopter and saw a captured VietCong prisoner pushed out the helicopter from a high altitude.

Somebody did a study--possibly that 1988 paper--and noted that _hundreds_ of vets told this story. If it was true, and this was only a sample of the total number of vets, then literally thousands of VietCong prisoners would have been executed in this way. The researcher found that hard to believe.

The truth is, all soldiers in all wars develop their own myths and legends. That does not mean that the things in the stories absolutely never happened, but that they certainly get exaggerated over time.

Some of the spitting happened thru chain link fences so the soldier/airman could not strike back.

More than just spit, sometimes they had blood and feces thrown on them.

"Some of the spitting happened thru chain link fences so the soldier/airman could not strike back."

Do you have a source for this?

"That is a good point. How likely is it that a "dirty hippie" is going to spit on a soldier--and not get the crap beaten out of him?"

Depends on the soldier. Depends on the Hippie.

Not all soldiers, even after a tour in Vietnam, were combat hardened. Only 10-15% of the troops there were in combat arms - a fair majority, even if they were bombed or shot at, were just guys doing a routine job in a messed up place.

> That is a good point. How likely is it that a "dirty hippie" is going to spit on a soldier--and not get the crap beaten out of him?

Those who don't have personal experience with violence often make serious errors when assuming that their "if I was in that situation" projects are reality.

In most environments where said "dirty hippie" would be free to spit, retaliation wouldn't go well for the soldier, and soldiers are smart enough to figure that out. ("Choose your battlefield".)

Plus, the fact that someone else is scum doesn't demand violent retaliation.

How likely is it that a "dirty hippie" is going to spit on a soldier--and not get the crap beaten out of him?

Very, I'd say. The soldier, unlike the hippie, is an adult, with an adult's self-discipline.

"How likely is it that a "dirty hippie" is going to spit on a soldier--and not get the crap beaten out of him?"

I believe that was the point of the spitting. Taunting the soldier into violence. The soldier faced all sorts of disciplining if they let their emotion get the best of them. No one in the military needed video, or recounting, of a soldier beating up on a dirty hippie, but the hippie would sure love that propaganda. So the soldier didn't react. Now if the hippie threw a punch or started other forms of violence first... then that video was fine for the military.

Now I may be hallucinating this memory, but didn't the MSM show news reports of protestors outside military bases here at home during the war? I could swear I remember seeing with mine own eyes, protestors spitting at soldiers. Or is this an issue of accuracy for the writer?

Next, the war was over in 1975, for the U.S. I joined the Navy in 1977, I had friends and co-workers who were appalled that I had even considered it. Several asked me if I had forgotten the war and asked would I kill babies for my country. 3 of those people never spoke to me again. So I have a hard time believeing the no animosity toward soldiers nonsense Mr. Llewellyn spouts.

I'd also like to inform anyone not in the know, that the referenced news paper is quite liberal, ne leftist. My family refers to it as either the News and Disturber, or The Raleigh Pravda.

Further what the hell is in the water system in Winston-Salem? Its a tobacco and textile town, maybe Mr. Llewellyn has ingested someting odd and HE is hallucinating.

My experiences were different than Aleta's. We were, in some important ways, different people in the late 1960s. Although I suspect we had many similarities as well.

I wound up "sort of" in the Army, very much against my will in 1967. "Sort of?" Well, even though I was in the Army, my assignment was doing physics research in Livermore, California. No uniforms, no living in Army housing, etc. We did have military leadership. I was also openly critical of the war. Those sentiments got me into all kinds of trouble with said military leadership. They also eventually got me to link up with pacifists who opposed the war.

The pacifists I met in Northern California showed no hostility to soldiers. In fact, they were quite friendly. They thought, basically, that ordinary soldiers needed help and were as much victims of the war as the Vietnamese.

Others were not so kind. There were clearly Communists and others who attached themselves to the Vietnam war opposition. These people were damned nasty to everybody -- even their supposed allies. I know the only hostility I ever encountered came from these known bullies. I suspect a lot of the nasty stuff Aleta describes came from a minority -- a much despised minority at that.

I suspect a lot of the nasty stuff Aleta describes came from a minority -- a much despised minority at that.

The problem for the entire generation is that it was also a much tolerated minority.

Niven's 2nd Law puts this succintly: "Never stand next to someone who is throwing shit at an armed man."

You know, the longer I've been home from Vietnam the more stories about our unwanted homecoming appear. Suffice to say, there were moratorium marches, there were snide remarks about baby killers and we were not to wear uniform travelling on public transport. All this is in Australia.