Of the people baying for Don Rumsfeld's head now, I'll take the ones seriously who were demanding the same of Janet Reno in 1993 after Waco.

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Well, at least I'd be on the list. As well as a lot of libertarians. Not everyone in the world is a hypocritical Republicrat or Demoplican.

I should have added one more condition--that they didn't want him to resign before this happened...

Then even if I did want Rumsfeld to resign now, I probably wouldn't qualify, because I wanted Janet Reno out before Waco.

Well, I've heard plenty of women here in the states characterize their interactions with men of the arabic origin and make comments about how rude they are to them directly for being a woman. Sure, we all known they are prone to interrupting and not listening to anybody for the most part (politically correct ?). But they seem to pretty much put that subjugation over the femal persuasion foremost in their mind and are particulary rude to women. I'm not certain but in most of the pictures I saw the thumbs up smiling person appeared to be a femalish soldier. I no doubt she did have her delusions of grandeur over a male dominant race and felt justified in her mockery of prior Saddam prison jurisdiction. I still just don't understand how we go from a crazy string of prison abuses to lets get rid of the secretary of defense. I just don't see that bridge.

Hefty,

As far as a chauvinistic trend in Islam, I'm sure there must be plenty of guys like that. I've never personally met one who was rude or dismissive of women. And I've only met a couple of dozen here in the states, and a couple dozen in the Philippines. There's groups of clueless chauvinists in all societies around the world. I don't judge all southerners just because a few of them are sexist Bubbas because I know that a lot, if not most of them aren't that way.

That said of all the Islamic people I've met, most of them have been very loving of their families and very protective of and repectful to their women.

I could also ask my wife. She met many Islamic
men while she was in Germany a few years back. I don't recall her ever mentioning anything rude in the way any of them acted to her. But I don't know between the two of us, we've only met Islamic people of the following heritages: Iraqi, Turkish, Jordanian, Palestinian, Lebanese, Saudi Arabian, Philipino, and I think one or two Syrians and Egyptians. So maybe we just don't have enough data points.

we've only met Islamic people of the following heritages: Iraqi, Turkish, Jordanian, Palestinian, Lebanese, Saudi Arabian, Philipino, and I think one or two Syrians and Egyptians. So maybe we just don't have enough data points.

You don't. You have to spend some time in those societies, particularly in the Wahhabi part--just meeting people who have left them tells you little.

As a snot-nosed teenager deep in the South Pacific when Waco happens, I can't say I am familar with the details. Was Reno warned repeatedly by experts in the field of negotiations and apocalyptic cults that the tactics employed at Waco might backfire? Did she force out of office officials who warned against the use of inciderary tear gas canisters in such a situation?

Just wondering...

No, not that I know of, Duncan, not that it has any relevance. I'm simply pointing out that when Janet Reno made a decision herself that resulted in many deaths, over and issue that was essentially grandstanding by the FBI and BATF (they could have simply picked up Koresh any time prior to the initial standoff, instead of setting up a deliberate confrontation), she simply said "I take responsibility" and there were no other consequences. Few (other than, as Jonathan points out, some libertarians) who are calling for Rumsfeld's head now thought that she should have resigned over it.

The most significant factor in these things is party affiliation.

Lindsay Graham (not easily mistaken for a Democrat) is apparently none to happy with Rumsfeld (or Cheney's arrogance).

The evidence is that what happened at Abu Gharib was a symptom of a botched occupation; an occupation that is ongoing . The incineration of Koresh himself and his followers, while a disaster, resolved the Waco situation. The crisis was over. Iraq is still very much in flux. You cant really compare the two situations.

Some might say that you shouldnt change horses in mid-race; but in this case the horse seems to be running backward. The Rumsfeld approach is failing. And very visibly throwning Rumsfeld overboard may help with public opinon in Iraq.

I may have to deploy the ultimate insult here. Don Rumsfeld has won some tactical and bureaucratic battles, but the Iraqi occupation has so far been a stratigic failure. His core belief - that the military can be reformed as a swifter, more affordable and enhanced entity (while it has had some useful elements) - has been widely discredited.

He's the Pentagon's Dan Goldin.

His core belief - that the military can be reformed as a swifter, more affordable and enhanced entity (while it has had some useful elements) - has been widely discredited.

In what way? I think that comparing him to Goldin is over the top. He's not a psycho, and it's far too early to say how effective the transformation is.

Senators from his own party are considering calling for the draft. Rumsfeld's posterchild, the Striker, is confined to Kurdistan. Contractors have generally performed poorly in Iraq. Hamid Karzai is merely a mayor in a land of postponed elections, warlords and massive opium production.

Rumsfeld is the master of the phryic victory.

You also might want to note the lack of enthusiasm for kicking out Rumsfeld found on various Democratic-leaning blogs. Their understanding is that a Rumsfeld in the hand might be better than a new, uncontroversial SoD under Bush come November.

Senators from his own party are considering calling for the draft.

Who? Chuck Hagel? He's a Republican in name only. The only people I've heard calling for a draft are wacko lefties like Charlie Rangell, who want it to help mobilize opinion against the war.

Many of the problem that you're describing are not necessarily the fault of the Pentagon. In both Afghanistan and Iraq, the State Department has called many of the poor shots.

Duncan:

Rumsfeld's posterchild, the Striker, is confined to Kurdistan.

I'm no fan of the Stryker vehicle (not least b/c I'm not sure the medium-weight brigade is anything other than a land-version of the battlecruiser, too light to do good, too heavy to be flexible), but I would remind you that the M-1 tank and the M-2 Bradley Infantry Fighting Vehicle both went through both teething problems AND lots of criticisms from "defense experts." Every new system suffers from both.

Contractors have generally performed poorly in Iraq.

Really? What is your assessment based on, the slaughter of four in Fallujah? Depending on what you are asking contractors to do, they range from quite well (e.g., Brown & Root's supplying of food as part of the LOGCAP program) to mediocre (providing security in some instances for convoys) to unknown (overall effectiveness of contractors in civil affairs).

Hamid Karzai is merely a mayor in a land of postponed elections, warlords and massive opium production.

Which is still better than Mullah Omar and the Taliban, in a land where all of the above have been true for much of the 20th Century.

Well, you can sign up noted pinkos George Will and Tacitus to the Dump Rummy movement.

I don't recall ever saying that wanting to get rid of Rumsfeld was a "pinko" position, Duncan.

Sorry - southern hemisphere slang for the left. Will in drag would not be a pretty sight. You were saying that calls for Rummy to go were mainly partisan -right?

The most significant factor in these things is party affiliation.

I know what "pinkos" means, Duncan.

I did say it was largely partisan, but not exclusively so--certainly there are exceptions. I do take George Will seriously--I just happen to not agree with him on this issue. I'm not sure what Tacitus' position was with respect to Janet Reno.

I'm not sure what Tacitus' position was with respect to Janet Reno.

I suspect it involved carpet bombing at some point... or you can look up Kos's opinion - Tac is reliably the inverse (even on Rumsfeld).

Jane Galt.
William F. Buckley.
Dan Drezner.
The Army Freaking Times.

I suspect if you where to ask these people the relevance of an internal affairs failure a decade ago, they would just give you a funny look and say "We just want to win the freaking war!".

Max Boot

is that fbi van still parked outside your house

rumor hasit they cataloging your trash.

??

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