Glenn is having a little dispute with Josh Chafetz over whether commercials and programs that depict men as fools and/or weaklings (relative to women) are a good or bad thing. While I agree with Glenn's point, I wonder how much of this is a backlash from previous days when the reverse was true. I'm going to be heretical here and say that I never "loved Lucy." I never found it all that funny, but moreover, if I were a woman I would be appalled at the image that she represented--she was a perpetual adolescent, with no common sense, and values so shallow that they'd be swamped by a dry lake. I don't watch the show, but on those occasions that I have, I was embarrassed for her.

On the other hand, this is anecdotal, because I can't think of any other show, off the top of my head, in which women were depicted as such self-centered idiots as that one. I wonder if anyone has ever done any research on the relative depictions of men versus women on television and radio over the decades, to see if there has been any overall change. Could be a good topic for a sociology thesis.

Well one area where women are still subjugated I believe is in print media ads such as in billboards and magazines. Most often women are portrayed as extremely thin and emaciated looking. If a woman and man are in the same ad then the woman is usually placed in the frame below or behind the man. The woman will also be displayed in a subservant and weak body position perhaps by tilting her head back and barring her neck or by sitting or kneeling down beneath a man that is standing tall powerfully bearing his chest. There are a great many subliminal messages in print ads that are usually done on purpose.

I think Bill Maher has pretty well summed up how men are portrayed now days in television shows pretty well though, to paraphrase one of his skits, 'All men in television these days are bumbling idiots while the women are all smart and sensible. The only men not made out to be morons are homo's, I mean come on, Frasier Crane is gayer then christmas.'

One old show that contradicted Lucy was the Honeymooners. Ralph was always in trouble, always trying harebrained schemes, and Alice was the one with common sense that held the family together.

". . . women are still subjugated . . . in print media ads"

Subjugate: from the Latin 'sub' (under) and 'jugum' (a yoke). 'To be yoked or made submissive.'

Rhetoric like that might be a tad overheated. I've never met anyone who had been subjugated by a billboard, but than again I've never been to Saudi Arabia. Perhaps it happens there.

Anyway. . . away from pedantic nit-picking, and back to topic.

If I remember correctly, the old 'Ma & Pa Kettle' also showed Pa as an idiot who was saved by Ma. 'Men are fools' is not a new theme. Watch 'Bewitched' or 'All in the Family'.

I, too, found Lucy embarrassing. Aside from Homer Simpson, I've never found stupid foolish people funny (and he isn't a person, so there). I don't understand why people want to watch & laugh at dumb behavior, and seeing ads that expect me to identify with an idiot do not induce me to buy their product.

TV ads that portray men as stupid annoy me as well. However, I realize that women control the majority of retail spending in America, and ads pander to their customer.

Bigoted, sexist ads are not a good thing.

It's a fact: about half of all men are smarter than average- except in TV ads. Also, about half of all women are smarter than their spouses.

The practical wife with the foolish husband is a theme that goes back thousands of years (including quite a few biblical references.) The thing is that men have been able to go along with the joke without being offended. Lucy was effective precisely because it was an aberation of the theme. Radio had things like the 'Life of Riley' TV had the 'Honeymooners' and cartoon variations like the 'Flintstones.' The problem today is all the people so easily taking offense (usually is some united political way... next they'll be asking for reparations?)

Me, I'm native american... I was born in Brooklyn NY to Italian parents. So can I have a casino?

I almost forgot a story about George and Gracie. Originally, I heard that Gracia Allen was supposed to deliver the straight line setup George Burns doing the funny punchlines. Then they figured out it worked better the other way around... I miss them.

Glenn isn't the only one with problems with the current (and historical) depiction of men as idiots. Kim du Toit posted a long rant on this subject a few months ago. It's still available on his website (http://www.kimdutoit.com/dr/essays/essays.php?id=P2327)

Warning, he's not bothering to be PC:-)