Some Iraqis say they won't forget how France has behaved, first in doing everything possible to keep Saddam in power, and now in stiffing them on aid. I think that Chirac has forgotten how long peoples' memories can be in that part of the world.

And these folks are supposed to be experts on diplomacy?

I suspect that when it comes to having contracts honored and getting debt repaid, the French (and Germans) just went to the back of the bus. In fact, I hope that Iraq explicitly repudiates Saddam's odious debt to France. I doubt if it would damage their ability to get loans anywhere else.

As usual, you take this kind of news at face value Rand. The person who made that statement is the current head of Iraq's U.S.-appointed governing council. A group that according to normally pro-American THE ECONOMIST is unpopular among ordinary Iraqis. He is hardly elected by the Iraqi people and therefore it's not a given his personal opinion is very representative.

> And these folks are supposed to be experts on
> diplomacy?

Really -- can you find a more inept bunch of diplomats than the current inhabitants of the White House?? These guys took on Saddam Hussein -- and somehow managed to turn the rest of the world into a seething hotbed of anti-Americanism.

It takes real talent to screw up a P.R. campaign like that. Yet you will need to win hearts and minds in the Middle East to solve this thing.

MARCU$

As usual, you take this kind of news at face value Rand. The person who made that statement is the current head of Iraq's U.S.-appointed governing council. A group that according to normally pro-American THE ECONOMIST is unpopular among ordinary Iraqis. He is hardly elected by the Iraqi people and therefore it's not a given his personal opinion is very representative.

OK, Marcus. And the Iraqi people should be thrilled with the French because...?

> And these folks are supposed to be experts on
> diplomacy?

Really -- can you find a more inept bunch of diplomats than the current inhabitants of the White House??

Yup. I think they live in Paris.

These guys took on Saddam Hussein -- and somehow managed to turn the rest of the world into a seething hotbed of anti-Americanism.

Oh, really? The entire rest of the world? And to the degree that's true, you really believe that it wasn't that way (albeit less vocally) before the war?

> OK, Marcus. And the Iraqi people should be
> thrilled with the French because...?

I think the key question is: will the Iraqis who Matter (note: not necessarily the same as the average Iraqi) be more or less thrilled by the U.S. 1-2 years from now. The French have not invaded their country, mind you.

>> Really -- can you find a more inept bunch of
>> diplomats than the current inhabitants of the
>> White House??

> Yup. I think they live in Paris.

Well, if diplomacy is a popularity contest, the big near-term losers appear to be Bush/Blair. Schroeder/Chirac/Putin have fared better in the "we told you so!" department so far.

> The entire rest of the world?

I have a fairly good view of Europe, and I mostly attribute the drastic rise in anti-Americanism over here on this Administration. Granted, "Slick Bill" Clinton frequently frustrated the French, Germans and Brits but he was never loathed or villied to the same extent as Shrub, Rummy, Right Wing Dick etc.. Check the opinion polls, and you'll notice a fairly drastic turn for the worse since the new Administration started running the show in just about every country.

> And to the degree that's true, you really
> believe that it wasn't that way (albeit less
> vocally) before the war?

I maintain it wasn't as personal as it currently is. Before Shrub, it was mostly perceived as a honest disagreement among friends.

MARCU$

I think the key question is: will the Iraqis who Matter (note: not necessarily the same as the average Iraqi) be more or less thrilled by the U.S. 1-2 years from now. The French have not invaded their country, mind you.

The "Iraqis who Matter" will remember who removed Saddam's boot from their neck, and who not only did everything in their (fortunately meager) power to prevent that from happening, but also did as much as they could to turn the peace into a failure.

Well, if diplomacy is a popularity contest, the big near-term losers appear to be Bush/Blair.

Fortunately, it's not. Diplomacy is achieving results that are in the best interests of your nation. On that score, this has been a disaster for France (and to a lesser extent Germany).

I have a fairly good view of Europe, and I mostly attribute the drastic rise in anti-Americanism over here on this Administration.

That's not the "entire rest of the world." It's not even all of Europe.

Which Iraqis matter? And to whom?

If we examine the rest of the region, the "Arabs who matter" tend to be the despots in charge. Sorta like Saddam, in fact.

If Saddam were still in charge, or were to return, I've no doubt that he'd look upon us askance.

But if a functioning democracy is in place (or do you scoff at that, Marcus?), who will be in charge? Who will matter?

For that matter, from your Euro-perch, who matters in Europe? Is the correct assumption that it is France and Germany that matter more than the "Group of 8"? Why?

And will that view, among your "Euros that matter," change if there is a Democrat in charge? In which case, it isn't really anti-Americanism, is it, but anti-George W.? In which case, predicating foreign policy on the personality of an individual, in a democratic system where they WILL be changed (or do you think he's really going to declare himself President-for-life?), would strike me as catastrophically bad foreign policy, bad diplomacy, and bad strategic thinking, in general.