Charles Murtaugh sees what he thinks is a contradiction between Ron Bailey and his Reasoned colleague, Jacob Sullum.

One way or another, passive smoking, and the anti-tobacco laws that it engenders, highlights an interesting contradiction among contemporary libertarians. On the one hand, folks like Ron Bailey relentlessly hype life- extension research, and denounce anti-techies like Leon Kass for opposing it. On the other hand, other folks like Bailey's Reason colleague Jacob Sullum mocks the rationale behind smoking bans. But put them together, and what do you have? If we think we might live forever, or even for a good chunk longer than we do now, small risks like passive smoke suddenly loom much larger, and smoking bans, e.g., become a lot more, well, reasonable.

No, what becomes more reasonable is not smoking bans, but freedom to choose, including the freedom to choose to go to a restaurant or bar that allows smoking (and perhaps thereby also choose a shorter life), or the freedom to choose not to frequent such places, and thereby hope to extend one's time on earth (albeit perhaps less enjoyably--that's a subjective thing). While there may be a contradiction between smoking and immortality (at current technology levels), there's no contradiction inherent in allowing individuals to make their own choices, which is what "free minds and free markets" is all about. I can't imagine Ron and Jacob getting into any arguments about this, because there's no true contradiction.

Charles also writes:

I've teed off on our prospects for immortality time and again, and I won't rehash my arguments. I feel pretty safe predicting that we won't see radical life extension (e.g. past 150 years) in our own lives, let alone thermodynamically-infeasible immortality, but leaving the science aside I think we're already living with the negative side effects of dreaming of immortality. (Immortality in this life, that is.) The greatest of those negative side effects is the imagined magnification of miniscule risk factors, such as passive smoke, acrylamide in our potato chips, or radioactive waste. If we live to be 80, sure, those won't matter much, but what if we live to be 500? The char on that overcooked burger could make all the difference!

Frankly, I find this absurd.

Charles seems to think that long life, if it happens at all, will only be a result of clean living. The reality is that it will almost certainly involve reengineering and continual repair of the human (or post-human) body. Any technology that is capable of this will find repairing damage from second-hand smoke and overcooked protein, or even radiation damage, a relatively trivial task.

This is related marginally to the thread, I know: why hasn't anyone discussed at length the foolishness and immorality of prolonging people's lives at all when the components of the human body continue to wear out? There is no point to making people live past the point that their teeth, eyesight, joints, hearing, skin, bladders, and such don't function at a high level. Second-hand cancer-stench and radiation will be the least of my worries when I'm drawing Social Security. "No Code" will be tattooed on my left breast.

Actually, many people do discuss this--it's part of what the "living will" movement is about. But the goal is not extension of life at any cost and any quality--it's the extension of health as well.

Laurie: the whole point to nano-medicine is to insure that those parts DON?T wear out and that you remain youthful and healthy forever. If find that to be immoral, fine. Don?t have it done for yourself and die of old age or disease. But do the rest of us a favor who DO want this done to ourselves and leave us out of your death wish.

Janessa Ravenwood,
Member of: Alcor Life Extension Foundation + Cryonics Institute as well

All I can say is, what's the point of living longer if you can't have fun?

Kevin makes a good point, and reminds me of something I heard years ago:

Some people are afraid to live.

Others are afraid to die.

Still others are afraid of both.

I'm kinda hoping that "uploading" will become practical. Still haven't personally answered the metaphysical question of whether or not the upload will technically be "me" but there's plenty of time for that.

With regard to the "freedom" to choose smoking or non-smoking. I wish it were that simple. But like many of these issues - the price of the "freedom" bit is often to have to compromise on your personal standards.

Rand's has a point, on the dietary front, anyway. The best prospects for a real change in lifespan involve metabolic alterations and repair mechanisms, which would have a good chance of addressing these factors.

But Charlie refers to another post by Phil Bowermaster that makes a better point. What about risk factors associated with transportation and the like? Presumably those would seem more important (but possibly only to those generations who remembered the shorter-life-span era. Those who'd grown up with it would probably adjust to the same sort of risk assessment we see now.)

I still find the point about second hand smoking to be off target. A while ago, I looked at accidental death (in the US). Assuming that we completely solve the immortality problem, ie with youthful bodies that can outlive the stars, etc, but that accidental death rates remain the same, then I find that if the average lifespan is on the order of 700 years. Automobiles, falling, choking, etc seem to comprise most of the accidental deaths. And I neglect such things as homicide, suicide, or nuclear war which would also tend to drop the average lifespan.

If we ever do solve the problem of immortality, I hope that we, the public also learn something of risk. Eg, it would be pathetic to send SWAT teams after the meager smoker underground while people get run over in the streets and continue to fall down poorly designed stairs (ie, the usual staircase has steps that are too short).

people just assume that medicine is staying the same.. better drugs opr something.. we''l rebuild you every day.. so you just don't age!

tht's the way you live forever.. and have fun doing it!!