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History Question

Can anyone remember the last time an Arab nation (or for that matter, an Islamic nation) won a war unassisted?

Posted by Rand Simberg at March 27, 2002 11:50 AM
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Turkey under Ataturk wiped the floor with the Greeks and then kicked the Soviets out of the Kars area in the 20s.

The Third Afghan War (20s again, I think) could be considered a victory for Islamic forces unassisted.

Aside from that, you've got me. Does King Hussein's victory over Black September count?

Posted by Iain Murray at March 27, 2002 12:32 PM

Iran beat Iraq in the 80s, at least in the sense that they defeated Saddam's original war aims and forced a return to the status quo ante.

Posted by Jim Bennett at March 27, 2002 12:37 PM

Was Ataturk's Turkey really an Islamic nation? And I consider the Iran-Iraq war to be a stalemate--neither side was competent to actually win.

Posted by Rand Simberg at March 27, 2002 12:44 PM

Algeria was a pretty big Arab win, as was the Morrocan occupation of the Western Sahara in the 1970s. That war was so effective that you hardly hear anything about it these days. Of course the Syrian backed war against Israel in the Lebanon should count (despite the Iranian backing).

Of course the rather brutal Iraqi suppressions of the Kurds from the 1970s on may also be counted a "win", although I don't think that this counts as a war even if the Kurds have been backed by some serious foreign help. The same will be said for the Sudanese civil war.

But apart from the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s and 1990s - I can't think of a single recent decade where an Arab nation has won a war unassisted.

Posted by Emmanuel Goldstein at March 27, 2002 01:07 PM

OK, next question. When was the last time in those four decades in which they won a war against a western power unassisted?

Posted by Rand Simberg at March 27, 2002 01:23 PM

I would go further and ask: when was the last time that ANY Islamic nation (or coalition of same) won against ANY non-Islamic nation (or coalition of same).

Atatürk's victory over Greece was about the last time (although it should be noted that Atatürk was to rapidly mandate the Westernization of Turkey thereafter).

Otherwise...perhaps some of Aurangzeb's victories over the Marathas in the late 17th century?

Posted by John "Akatsukami" Braue at March 27, 2002 05:59 PM

After kicking ass at Gallipoli, and then all over Anatolia, the first thing Ataturk did was to abolish the Sultanate (i.e. the Ottoman Empire) and the Caliphate (i.e. the Sultan as the leader of all Muslims), and declare that the new Turkish Republic would be strictly secular. He then proceeded to shut down all kinds of Islamic associations, and put down a number of Islamic rebellions. He would be seriously offended if anyone thought of Turkey as an Islamic nation.

Posted by D.T. at March 27, 2002 06:40 PM

Algeria threw out the French.
Yeah, I know, bad example. Losers being beaten by losers.
I think the last time would have been in the 1600s. I remember reading something once where the Ottomans had a saying which went 'if you have to fight, fight Arabs'
Basically you can keep kicking the crap out of them, they will never give up and they will never win. You get all your troops used to combat and the danger is almost as low as wargames but with the added bonus of a real enemy. They never quit but they also never learn

Posted by The Sophontologist at March 27, 2002 07:01 PM

Islamic Indonesia crushed Catholic East Timor in the mid seventies.

Posted by ruprecht at March 27, 2002 08:03 PM

A little over 10 years ago, Iraq beat the stuffing out of Kuwait.

Posted by John Wood at March 27, 2002 08:18 PM

A certain western superpower was driven out of Lebanon during the 80's and out of Somalia in the 90's. Instead of asking history questions, we need to continue to hunt down every terrorists out there, and we need to stop sending money to the Mideast by using every means possible to reduce our dependence on Mideast oil, starting with more fuel efficient cars and trucks.

Posted by GP at March 27, 2002 10:11 PM

Iraq invaded Kuwait, but was driven out about six months later. A six month occupation is not a win, especially considering the hardware costs that Iraq sustained during the war.

Posted by Josh Fielek at March 28, 2002 06:39 AM

GP, there is plenty of oil in North America. Off the coast of California and in the Gulf of Mexico, there are tremendous reserves of oil (some geologists have estimated a 400-year supply). Fuel efficiency is great and all but not any cure-all for our current situation. If anything, they will hate us more when we become fuel independent.

Posted by Addison at March 28, 2002 08:02 AM

Addison, thanks for your comments. Especially when you include the oil in oil shale and in tar sands in Venezuala, there's lots of oil in the Western hemisphere. However, the cheap, easily accessible stuff is still mostly in the Mideast. OPEC will always price oil so its cheaper than the hard- to- access stuff here.
If the Mideast hates us more for not buying their oil, then we need to move even more quickly to lessen our dependence on their oil.

Posted by GP at March 28, 2002 11:45 AM

Josh,
My response was to the question.

Iraq defeated Kuwait. The US, UK and some observers drove Iraq off of Kuwait's land.

Two wars.

To call the second one an assistance to Kuwait is a gross understatement. Still, it is not clear that the US, et al really won.

Yeah, this is a silly example, but not as silly as suggesting suppression of the Kurds is winning a war, or calling the Persian defense an Arabic win.

Posted by John Wood at March 28, 2002 09:15 PM

That's like saying that WW II was two wars. The first, the successful German conquest of France and most of Europe. The second was the retaking of it by the Allies.

Sorry, but most historians consider that one war, as they do the Gulf War. Iraq lost the latter.

Posted by Rand Simberg at March 28, 2002 10:31 PM

"as silly as suggesting suppression of the Kurds is winning a war"

I'm sorry but in the 1970s the Kurds had a lot of backing from other powers (especially the Iranians under the Shah) and were a millitary threat to Iraq. Whether it was a war or not, I don't know, but it was close.

Posted by Emmanuel Goldstein at March 29, 2002 12:46 AM

"OK, next question. When was the last time in those four decades in which they won a war against a western power unassisted?"

Algeria against the French in the 1950s-60s
Lebanon (with Iranian help) against Israel in the 1980s-90s
Somalia - which isn't really Arab - against the Americans in the 1990s

Posted by Emmanuel Goldstein at March 29, 2002 12:49 AM

The French don't count as a western power. ;-)

Lebanon/Israel was a stalemate.

The US was not at war with Somalia. That was a humanitarian-relief effort gone sour. If and when we go to war with Somalia (and it's not out of the question if they continue to be a terrorist haven) they'll know they're in a war.

Posted by Rand Simberg at March 29, 2002 08:39 AM

The Germans beat the snot out of the French, and it wasn't the French who drove them out. But I understand that the semantics don't favor my interpretation. Since I wasn't around for WWII, I have to depend on someone else's interpretation. Please get Doris to declare it a single war, and I'll buy it.

Posted by John Wood at March 29, 2002 07:36 PM


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