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History Question Can anyone remember the last time an Arab nation (or for that matter, an Islamic nation) won a war unassisted? Posted by Rand Simberg at March 27, 2002 11:50 AMTrackBack URL for this entry:
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Turkey under Ataturk wiped the floor with the Greeks and then kicked the Soviets out of the Kars area in the 20s. The Third Afghan War (20s again, I think) could be considered a victory for Islamic forces unassisted. Aside from that, you've got me. Does King Hussein's victory over Black September count? Posted by Iain Murray at March 27, 2002 12:32 PMIran beat Iraq in the 80s, at least in the sense that they defeated Saddam's original war aims and forced a return to the status quo ante. Posted by Jim Bennett at March 27, 2002 12:37 PMWas Ataturk's Turkey really an Islamic nation? And I consider the Iran-Iraq war to be a stalemate--neither side was competent to actually win. Posted by Rand Simberg at March 27, 2002 12:44 PMAlgeria was a pretty big Arab win, as was the Morrocan occupation of the Western Sahara in the 1970s. That war was so effective that you hardly hear anything about it these days. Of course the Syrian backed war against Israel in the Lebanon should count (despite the Iranian backing). Of course the rather brutal Iraqi suppressions of the Kurds from the 1970s on may also be counted a "win", although I don't think that this counts as a war even if the Kurds have been backed by some serious foreign help. The same will be said for the Sudanese civil war. But apart from the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s and 1990s - I can't think of a single recent decade where an Arab nation has won a war unassisted. Posted by Emmanuel Goldstein at March 27, 2002 01:07 PMOK, next question. When was the last time in those four decades in which they won a war against a western power unassisted? Posted by Rand Simberg at March 27, 2002 01:23 PMI would go further and ask: when was the last time that ANY Islamic nation (or coalition of same) won against ANY non-Islamic nation (or coalition of same). Atatürk's victory over Greece was about the last time (although it should be noted that Atatürk was to rapidly mandate the Westernization of Turkey thereafter). Otherwise...perhaps some of Aurangzeb's victories over the Marathas in the late 17th century? Posted by John "Akatsukami" Braue at March 27, 2002 05:59 PMAfter kicking ass at Gallipoli, and then all over Anatolia, the first thing Ataturk did was to abolish the Sultanate (i.e. the Ottoman Empire) and the Caliphate (i.e. the Sultan as the leader of all Muslims), and declare that the new Turkish Republic would be strictly secular. He then proceeded to shut down all kinds of Islamic associations, and put down a number of Islamic rebellions. He would be seriously offended if anyone thought of Turkey as an Islamic nation. Posted by D.T. at March 27, 2002 06:40 PMAlgeria threw out the French. Islamic Indonesia crushed Catholic East Timor in the mid seventies. Posted by ruprecht at March 27, 2002 08:03 PMA little over 10 years ago, Iraq beat the stuffing out of Kuwait. Posted by John Wood at March 27, 2002 08:18 PMA certain western superpower was driven out of Lebanon during the 80's and out of Somalia in the 90's. Instead of asking history questions, we need to continue to hunt down every terrorists out there, and we need to stop sending money to the Mideast by using every means possible to reduce our dependence on Mideast oil, starting with more fuel efficient cars and trucks. Posted by GP at March 27, 2002 10:11 PMIraq invaded Kuwait, but was driven out about six months later. A six month occupation is not a win, especially considering the hardware costs that Iraq sustained during the war. Posted by Josh Fielek at March 28, 2002 06:39 AMGP, there is plenty of oil in North America. Off the coast of California and in the Gulf of Mexico, there are tremendous reserves of oil (some geologists have estimated a 400-year supply). Fuel efficiency is great and all but not any cure-all for our current situation. If anything, they will hate us more when we become fuel independent. Posted by Addison at March 28, 2002 08:02 AMAddison, thanks for your comments. Especially when you include the oil in oil shale and in tar sands in Venezuala, there's lots of oil in the Western hemisphere. However, the cheap, easily accessible stuff is still mostly in the Mideast. OPEC will always price oil so its cheaper than the hard- to- access stuff here. Josh, Iraq defeated Kuwait. The US, UK and some observers drove Iraq off of Kuwait's land. Two wars. To call the second one an assistance to Kuwait is a gross understatement. Still, it is not clear that the US, et al really won. Yeah, this is a silly example, but not as silly as suggesting suppression of the Kurds is winning a war, or calling the Persian defense an Arabic win. That's like saying that WW II was two wars. The first, the successful German conquest of France and most of Europe. The second was the retaking of it by the Allies. Sorry, but most historians consider that one war, as they do the Gulf War. Iraq lost the latter. Posted by Rand Simberg at March 28, 2002 10:31 PM"as silly as suggesting suppression of the Kurds is winning a war" I'm sorry but in the 1970s the Kurds had a lot of backing from other powers (especially the Iranians under the Shah) and were a millitary threat to Iraq. Whether it was a war or not, I don't know, but it was close. Posted by Emmanuel Goldstein at March 29, 2002 12:46 AM"OK, next question. When was the last time in those four decades in which they won a war against a western power unassisted?" Algeria against the French in the 1950s-60s The French don't count as a western power. ;-) Lebanon/Israel was a stalemate. The US was not at war with Somalia. That was a humanitarian-relief effort gone sour. If and when we go to war with Somalia (and it's not out of the question if they continue to be a terrorist haven) they'll know they're in a war. Posted by Rand Simberg at March 29, 2002 08:39 AMThe Germans beat the snot out of the French, and it wasn't the French who drove them out. But I understand that the semantics don't favor my interpretation. Since I wasn't around for WWII, I have to depend on someone else's interpretation. Please get Doris to declare it a single war, and I'll buy it. Post a comment |