"The War Is Over, And We Won"

You're right Rand. Let's go do it somewhere else now.

Darn skippy, Jardinero.
How about one of those third-world places run by corrupt and bitter kleptocracies, where gangs rule the streets and normal citizens are powerless to affect political change because of a rigged political system?
I was thinking Detroit, Chicago, maybe Pittsburgh.

" was thinking Detroit, Chicago, maybe Pittsburgh."

Careful DaveP. One of those is the home of the Dear Leader. Words like those can get you a mid-night knock on the door.

Now president elect Obama can claim a foreign policy triumph in Iraq. That's how it works right?

Want to set up a pool for when that happens?

Hopefully, Bush will claim it before he leaves office.

Pretty awesome ain't it, that the party (and the individuals) that exhibited crap judgment in both foreign and domestic affairs now controls our entire government!

How'd that happen again?

"Hopefully, Bush will claim it before he leaves office."

You know, I do not believe it is in his nature to do something like that.

On the other hand, hopefully Obama will not find a way to loose it.

What did we win?

Bin Laden is still floating around Afghanistan.

Oil Prices are Higher now then in 2003.

The Iraqi WMD program was non-existent.

The US Army is in terrible shape.

Iran is now the power player in the Middle East.

For a trillion dollars, what did we win?

Now president elect Obama can claim a foreign policy triumph in Iraq. That's how it works right?

Yep, that is how it works, in the mid-term at least. Bush knows that as he knows many awkward things. If it bugs him it has never shown. Not once.

Jack, what we have won is exactly what the Bushies said was the object years ago; a stable, democratic, unitary Iraq within recognized, defensible boarders at peace with herself and with her neighbors. I know that doesn't seem like much to some folks but, gosh darn it, I actually kind of believe in all this freedom and consensual government stuff. Silly me.

What did we win?

Well, it's very likely you've a completely closed mind on this, or are simply an unobservant idiot. Let's be charitable, and assume the latter, in which case you may be interested in:

Bin Laden is still floating around Afghanistan.

Probably Pakistan, actually, assuming he's even still alive. However, have you noticed any terrorist attacks planned by him lately? Like, in the past five years? No? Aside from the "law enforcement" issue so dear to the hearts of Democrats, why do we care whether the guy is "floating around" neutered or actually, you know, dead? If Hitler had survived the Second World War and was hiding in Brazil even now, would you declare FDR and Truman's efforts in that war a failure?

Oil Prices are Higher now then in 2003.

Well, first, it wasn't a blood for oil war, was it? Because That Would Be Wrong. Secondly, oil prices are, as you may have noticed, rather volatile. Right now they're about $60, this summer they were $150. Do you spot any correlation with the Iraq War there? Yes? Do you see UFOs, too?

The price of oil is controlled by many things, but military success in Iraq is, unfortunately, not one of them. (Otherwise we could look forward to a decade of low oil prices.)

The Iraqi WMD program was non-existent.

Er...unless you don't count chemical weapons, which, alas, most everyone else does. Plus you're wrong anyway. The program certainly existed. The final weapons did not. But, as Mr. Bush said long ago, if you wait until they have weapon to act, it's far too late.

You're probably one of those idiots who don't believe in having your child vaccinated against deadly diseases because, gosh, he hasn't got one yet, and furthermore, no child you know has, either. Fortunately there are people in this world who think a trifle further ahead than the end of their nose, and next tax "rebate" check from the government.

The US Army is in terrible shape.

Says who? Not the Army. Recruitment is solid, morale is high, and training and competence are higher than they've been in two generations. Practically every company-level officer has led men under actual enemy fire. We have an army of seasoned veterans, which we haven't had in many years. Not only that, but the first army to have won a counter-insurgency since the British in 1900, and the only army to have done so without terrorizing the populace.

Iran is now the power player in the Middle East.

And when were they not? Iran has been a power player in the Middle East since Alexander the Great. Weren't you around in the 70s and 80s, when the Iranian Revolution was in all the news here? Why do you suppose that was, if Iran was not a "power player" in 1979, just like it is now? Under what circumstances can you imagine that the largest, perhaps wealthiest, and very likely best-educated country with the longest tradition of aggressive foreign policy would not be a "power player"?

The issue is not whether Iran is a power player -- it always has been, and always will be, just like the United States in North America. The issue is what kind of "player" they are. That's an issue the Obama Administration will have to address.

For a trillion dollars, what did we win?

Well, probably the first establishment of an actual democracy in the Middle East. Replacing a terrorism sponsor with an ally. Freeing 20 million people and earning the respect of maybe 50 million more. Scaring the shit out of potential state sponsors of terrorism. Raising respect for what the USMC can do to you if you're not nice to levels not seen since 1945.

Now let's see, how about you tell me what we've got for the more than trillion dollars we've spent on stuff like the War on Poverty, the Great Society, the War on Drugs, and such similar campaigns?

The nice thing about actual, instead of metaphorical wars, is they very often are won and the issue settled once and for all.

Jack, taking your points as read, despite the fact that many of them are bone-chillingly off-base, some of what we won includes:

Iraq is no longer a state sponsor of terrorism. In fact, Iraq is now actively hostile to jihadis of all stripes.

Iraq is a democracy, and likely will evolve into a less corrupt and less authoritarian state than any other, except Israel, in the Middle East, serving as a long-term cultural agent of change that undermines the jihadi message from within the same culture. Moreover, if Iraq becomes economically successful (and it might), this further undermines the jihadi message.

The US will show its willingness to leave Iraq on Iraqi terms, undermining other key points of the jihadis. The SOFA negotiations themselves have been a big win for us, merely because the Iraqis are standing up for their interests and we are not forcing them to comply with our wishes. That dramatically weakens the "puppet" argument.

The US is no longer so heavily based in Saudi Arabia, which was a key irritant among many Muslim groups, and not just the jihadis. Not only that, we are no longer fighting a continual low-level war without resolution, which only showed that we didn't have the guts to finish things. (From the Arab point of view.)

We have destroyed the myth that we will not stand and fight. We have destroyed the myth that we will not stay through a long-term insurgency and do what we need to win it. We have destroyed the myth (well, except on the American and European Left) that we are heartless monsters and baby killers, killing indiscriminately and without being willing to get our hands dirty.

We now have the most combat-experienced force in the world, and have honed and perfected the systems we went into the war with as well as deploying new systems (not just technology; training and such as well). We have proven that our counterinsurgency strategy can work, and can work humanely. We have done all of this without instituting a draft or dramatically raising the size of the total force.

Tens of thousands of jihadis are dead, and the jihadis also suffered a dramatic battlefield defeat on what they themselves defined as home turf and the central battle against us. This has been and will continue to hurt recruiting efforts. In addition, the major leadership figures in the middle ring (and a few at the top) have been killed or captured, thus dramatically weakening the enemy's ability to reconstitute.

It's not over in Iraq, though it's close, and we could still lose Iraq to Iran the way we lost S. Viet Nam to N. Viet Nam (completely pulling our support after we'd already won the insurgency, so that a conventional invasion would bring them down, then not supporting our ally when the conventional invasion came). It's really not over in Afghanistan/Pakistan, and that's going to be a much more difficult problem to unwind, because of Pakistan's ambiguous position. It's really, really not over in the Long War, which will be going on for decades, because killing an ideology is much tougher than defeating a country in battle, and a religious ideology is more difficult still to erase. But we've come a long way, and been very successful, and only the foolish or the hopelessly partisan would deny that.

At Bush's proclomaiton of the Iraqi win, his aides should put up a big Mission Accomplished banner, to remind people it has been. I wonder if there is a slightly used banner laying around somewhere.

Recruitment is solid, morale is high...

Well, at least it was before last Tuesday...

Well, probably the first establishment of an actual democracy in the Middle East.

If you don't count Israel.

You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake.

You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake.

I'd say that wins the prize for the stupidest comment so far.

"Subash wrote:
You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake."

Trite unatributed quotes aside, that is nonsense.

I suppose the ghost of Napolean will find cold comfort in that thought.

"Not only that, but the first army to have won a counter-insurgency since the British in 1900"

Malaysia? Congo?

Subash wrote:
You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake.

Evidently there's some sort of requirement that smug left-wing slogans have to be stupefyingly dumb as well as wrong ...

Jeannette Rankin was an idiot and so are those who quote her.

The Bush team juiced up intel, the Army and the Corp went in and kicked ass, no one was available to police the resulting and predictable anarchy, Bush team refused to listen to the generals on the ground and disbands the military and instituted de-baathification. The resulting and predictable insurgency starts and the generals on the ground who lead the successful invasion resign. Four years later, Bush Team finally adopts clear hold and build which shows some success.

So much for a win. The 3,000+ troops that died during the monumental pre-surge cock-up died for Bush staying the course with his butt-boy clowns. The surge started AFTER the Democrats took over Congress. Nothing like getting a rotten, stinking report card to encourage a change of plans.

So Rand, you have it exactly backward my friend. By placing heat on Bush and his crap-can advisers, Iraq is now starting to turn around after 5-years of f-ing the dog.

The sound of chickenhawks clucking on this blog is deafening.

The sound of chickenhawks clucking on this blog is deafening.

Ah, the ancient, idiotic "chickenhawk" "argument" pops up again.

So, are you denying that if the Democrat Congress had had their way, we would have retreated and lost the war? Because that was (and seems to remain) Barack Obama's position--that we should not have had "the surge," and that we should have withdrawn immediately two years ago (if not earlier). And if we had, we would have abandoned Iraq to the enemy, with new terrorist training camps there.

Are we a trillion dollars, 4000 dead and 90,000 maimed better off? I don't think so.

Who is smoking dope here? Iraq is very unstable and a long ways yet from a democracy. We will see if there is any meaningful election in January. The only reason things are better is that we (the United States) are paying plenty of folks not to fight. Let's see what happens when the payments stop because we can't afford it anymore now that our economy is in the dumps (and the one trillion for Irag is a key reason for this).

Sorry, Jed but the 'Tens of thousands of jihadis' now dead were a result of us invading Iraq. How would you feel if someone invaded our country? I'm amazed how some folks don't take into account how this could radicalize Iraqis. I'm even more amazed that after all the information that has come up on Vietnam including Robert McNamara's reflections that we have folks thinking we could have won in Vietnam. But I guess they are now using Iraq to try to prove everyone wrong.

Rand:

Play your gotcha verbal Wargames all you want, but the political reality was that by recommending a pullout and winning the 2006 election, the Democrats forced Bush to shit or get off the pot. The actual physical result of Democrat pressure forced Bush to man up and try to fix his huge failure.

Iraq is still a huge failure, even though the violence is "low" while the Iraqi government and NGO's feed off our tax money and hide behind and among our troops. Since you claim victory, we can pull all our troops out right now, right? The victory you claim is but a wish.

As you will recall, it was Cheney and Rumsfeld who wanted to pull out in '04 once it was confirmed that WMDs were not found. In any event, we can target any camps that might pop up with Special Forces and smart bombs. The Iraq occupation has weakened our military and strengthened Iran and the Taliban.

You are starting to remind me of the Man-Made Global Warming "scientists" who are in major denial about the last 10-years of cooling/unchanged global temperatures. In the face of overwhelming facts, you still claim that this inept adventure is a victory.

Besides killing Saddam Obama Hussein and his spawn, what have we gained? Please provide a realpolitik list of accomplishments, not some squishy wet dream.

Since you claim victory, we can pull all our troops out right now, right?

Are you saying that we didn't defeat Germany in 1945? Because we left troops there for decades.

The rest of your historical ignorance, I'll ignore.

"The sound of chickenhawks clucking on this blog is deafening."

I served. Who the fuck is a 'Chickenshit' like yourself to judge me?

The stench of your ignorance is nauseating.

I thought we were talking about Iraq, not Germany. But while we are on the subject, the troops remained because of Russia and the continuing Cold War, which we did not win until 1989. Later, Bush 43 looked into Putin's eyes, fell in love and allowed a resurgent KGB Bear to rekindle the Cold War with a Georgian invasion and missiles on the Polish frontier.

No single administration has fouled up foreign policy, made our country weaker and instituted the most far left socialist monetary policy all at the same time. Is this called defining victory down?

You dead-enders cling to the hope that History will depict W as a great leader... you might be right if they are written by the Chi-Coms.

Ignore all you want and think happy thoughts. Mommy will soon bring hot chocolate and tuck you in.

Did we serve together in the Corps in the early 1980's Mike? You remember when that asshole Reagan sent our brothers to slaughter in Beirut then pulled out before we could get some. What a fucking pussy he was. OBL saw he was a pussy and started planning 911.

BTW, I would call me a "Shitbird". Chickenshit is a verb, not a noun.

Shitbird is so 80's.

Fuckstick fist you better.

LOL!

My best typo ever!

I thought we were talking about Iraq, not Germany. But while we are on the subject, the troops remained because of Russia and the continuing Cold War, which we did not win until 1989.

And do you, in your monumental ignorance, think that the war against Islamist extremism is now somehow over? Iraq was just one battle that we have won, but had you and yours had your way, we would have lost.

Actually Bush did listen to the generals, for far too long. He listened to Casey and Abizaid who recommended the "light footprint" strategy because closer presence of American troops in Iraqi neighborhoods would anger the Iraqis and cause more of them to join the terrorists. That turned out to be exactly the opposite of the case. Bush finally had the sense to listen to Petraeus, convinced to do so by a retired general and a civilian policy wonk, who were the ones who came up with the surge strategy then sold it to Bush. And Petreaus' strategy of counter insurgency worked. What matters isn't listening to the generals or not listening to the generals, it's which generals you listen to.

Bush's main weakness as a President, which I think explains many of his problems, is that he is not ruthless enough. The Duke of Alba (d. 1582) commented, out of bitter personal experience, that "Kings use men like oranges. They squeeze out the juice and throw away the rind." It comes with the job. So must Presidents act at times. Bush was all too often unwilling to do so. Look at how he kept Tenet on for years, when the guy should have been out on his ear on 9/12/2001. Bush would have served himself and the country better if he were not so amiable a man.

Most of the rest of the complaints about Bush, including the ones about him being a moron, are just lies. He's no genius, but there have been few such in the White House and they were not always the best. He is reasonably intelligent; you don't get a Harvard MBA if you are a dunce. His opponents were no real prizes in the mental agility catagory. Both Gore and Kerry can be described as delusional, Gore for his fanaticism about Anthropogenic Global Warming and Kerry for his memory of listening to Nixon over the radio at Christmas 1968 while Kerry was in Cambodia. He wasn't in Cambodia, Nixon wasn't President then, and I for one was very reluctant to put the nuclear football into the hands of a man who had delusions seared (as he insisted they were) into his brain. I think Bush's reputation will be enhanced by historical perspective, much like Truman's was. And Obama should watch out. If Iraq falls apart a year from now, after Obama inherited a war we had alomst won, he will bear the blame and then he will be a guaranteed one termer, no matter how many votes ACORN fraudulently delivers for him.

Michael Lonie writes:
" you don't get a Harvard MBA if you are a dunce."

I have 700 billion pieces of proof that argue the opposite

How convenient that Yon tells us we have won the war just as the Iraqi government is telling us to leave.

Now, where have we heard this before?

In 2003:

SGT. STRYKER writes that the war is over, and we've won. Thank goodness. It was starting to seem like a quagmire.

And 2005:

KARL ZINSMEISTER says the war is over and we won...

Incidentally, un embedded reporters are saying quite the opposite.

http://antiwar.com/radio/2008/11/13/patrick-cockburn-7/

It's quite simple really. We just handed Iraq to Iran on a platter without them firing a single bullet and now Iran is telling Malaki it's time for us to go.

"Moreover, if Iraq becomes economically successful (and it might), this further undermines the jihadi message."

The jihadi message has been that the US are invaders, conquerors and occupiers. So long as we stay, the jihadi message is alive and well.

"The US will show its willingness to leave Iraq on Iraqi terms, undermining other key points of the jihadis."

The US has been resisting the Iraqi terms for the last six months. Are you forgetting how Malaki liked Obama's timetable and then Washinton and McCain spun it to be a "mis-translation"?

The SOFA negotiations had been hitting one road block after another and in fact been a humiliation for us. The Iraqi government knows it has has Tehran's support.

"We have destroyed the myth that we will not stand and fight."

That was never a myth. There are up to a million dead Iraqis to prove it.

"We have destroyed the myth that we will not stay through a long-term insurgency and do what we need to win it."

Yeah, we started bribing and arming the insurgents and turned around and called it a great victory.

"We have destroyed the myth (well, except on the American and European Left) that we are heartless monsters and baby killers,"

Hardly. We are killing civilians every day, both in Iraq and Afghanistan. We just say sorry, and then do it again.

"We now have the most combat-experienced force in the world"

Against rag tag armies, maybe. 600 thousand or more now PTSD and unable to fight. Our military infrastructure is in ruins. The Russian/Georgian conflict exposed how impotent we now are.

"We have proven that our counterinsurgency strategy can work, and can work humanely."

"Tens of thousands of jihadis are dead, and the jihadis also suffered a dramatic battlefield defeat on what they themselves defined as home turf and the central battle against us."

And we know they're all johadis, because by definition, anyone we kill is a jihadi. We kill Iraqi's and call them insurgents/AQ whatever.

"the major leadership figures in the middle ring (and a few at the top) have been killed or captured"

No they just get replaced. The real jihadis welcome death remember?

We have already lost Iraq to Iran. That's why the Irai government isn't backing down from it's terms. McCain has been saying all along that we will leave on our terms. Now you are saying that becasue we are leaving oin Iraq's terms, it proves we are winning?

"we'd already won the insurgency"

Really? Apparently, someone hasn't told the Iraqi people

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/13/world/middleeast/13iraq.html?_r=1&hp=&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin

"But we've come a long way, and been very successful, and only the foolish or the hopelessly partisan would deny that."

Yes we have come a long way. We have a bill of 3 trillion. 4 thousand dead Americans from the conflict. Another 4 thousand dead from suicides. 600 thousand or more permanently maimed and a military that is in tatters.

Oh and BTW. Patreaus says there will be no victory. Maybe Yon should have a talk to him.

This to and fro about Iraq never ceases to amaze me.

How will we know when we have "won" in Iraq? When they have their second peaceful transfer of power from one faction to a competing faction.

Mexico hasn't yet met this particular criterion.

How will we know that we have "lost" in Iraq? If Persian's are in charge of the Iraqi government.

I leave as an exercise to the reader how we would ascertain THAT particular matter.

It's quite simple really. We just handed Iraq to Iran on a platter without them firing a single bullet and now Iran is telling Malaki it's time for us to go.

Did the Iranians also give us permission to kill and capture their Qods Force goons in Iraq, like we did last week? Is that part of their brilliant plan? To be captured or die?

"Michael Lonie wrote:

Actually Bush did listen to the generals, for far too long. He listened to Casey and Abizaid "

Exactly, Bush listened to Rummy's Boys, Not Tommy Franks' boys. Bush never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity. Better late than never, right? Just a few thousand boys killed and tens of thousands maimed so Rummy could win the bureaucratic infighting in Washington and turn Iraq into hell on earth.

"What matters isn't listening to the generals or not listening to the generals, it's which generals you listen to."

Yeah, and McChimpy was a day late and a dollar short. Talking about closing the barn door after the horse escaped to the next county.

"I think Bush's reputation will be enhanced by historical perspective, much like Truman's was."

We all suffer from delusions, keep thinking happy thoughts and it will all get better. Maybe he hill be praised in the Islamo-fascist history books. The only President to be enhanced in History by Bush is Clinton... just like Palin making Hillary look good.

"And Obama should watch out. If Iraq falls apart a year from now, after Obama inherited a war we had alomst won, he will bear the blame and then he will be a guaranteed one termer, no matter how many votes ACORN fraudulently delivers for him."

"Almost won." The title of this Blog Post is "...We Won" Does that mean that Bush should get points for trying? What a clucking gaggle of impotent putz'.

At least you are not a complete emotional basket case like our generous host. How pathetic: Rand is a troll on his own blog.

Do you feel my FuckStick now?

Just a few thousand boys killed and tens of thousands maimed so Rummy could win the bureaucratic infighting in Washington and turn Iraq into hell on earth.

Yes, because Iraq was such a paradise under Saddam.

Yeah, and McChimpy was a day late and a dollar short.

And we're supposed to take anything you say seriously?

At least you are not a complete emotional basket case like our generous host. How pathetic: Rand is a troll on his own blog.

Do you feel my FuckStick now?

Do you feel my banning now? Time for you to go somewhere else and marinate in your ignorant rage.

"Do you feel my FuckStick now?"

Feel it? You are it, just look in the mirror to see one.

Horst Grabben?

You sound like a Die Hard villian. I think you deserve a:

"Yippie Ki-yay Mutherfuker!"

> Later, Bush 43 looked into Putin's eyes, fell in love and allowed a resurgent KGB Bear to rekindle the Cold War with a Georgian invasion and missiles on the Polish frontier.

Is Grabben one of our EU friends?

I wonder if they've noticed that the US is in the process of letting them determine their fate wrt Russia.

The EU keeps telling the US how rich it is and that the US does everything wrong. They haven't noticed that the US is starting to say "show us".

It's interesting that when something goes wrong in the world, folks say "how can we get the US here to help?" For some reason, they don't expect the EU to be able to respond.

Then again, they can't. They don't even have transport.

Also, I would appreciate it if ANYONE has read the Army's own published after action review of OIF.

Very interesting reading...

How is this news? Didn't I see a "Mission Accomplished" banner behind the President 5 years ago? Can we fucking leave now? And save over $300 million per day?

Didn't I see a "Mission Accomplished" banner behind the President 5 years ago?

Ho HO! You are the insightful one, Gus. As we all know, those classic Move On nuggets only become more convincing with age and mindless repetition.

Hey, since it's almost Thanksgiving, can you tell us the one about the plastic turkeys again? I love that one!

Can we fucking leave now?

You can leave anytime you want, ol' buddy. Seriously. Anytime now.