No Fascism Here

Next, we'll see large parades with people carrying Obama banners, followed by news stories like "Chairman Obama leads the happy workers in song."

No Fascism Here

And if that fascist disciple Obama wins the election, we can expect him to copy Mussolini's reckless program of military adventurism. He will invade one weak Islamic state after another, just like Mussolini did. At first it will look like victory to march into the backwaters, but down the road it will anger erstwhile allies and create dangerous foreign entanglements. And, as with Mussolini, Obama's drive to militarize society will steamroll democratic reason with belligerent nationalism.

No, America really cannot afford a reckless leader like that.

I am reminded of films of kids in Communist countries, singing the praises of the leaders and the state.

It definitely rates about a 9.7 on my weird-shit-o-meter.

He will invade one weak Islamic state after another,

I see that Malignant Hemorrhoid is trolling again.

Hey Rand, he's right the Uno already said he would attack Pakistan. Who knows where he would go next? Maybe Missouri. He's got a start on the police state there now.

It just blows my mind that liberals will snidely deride religious people for being so cuckoo as to go and single songs praising Jesus at church. Yet, they feel it is perfectly acceptable to put on such performances for a politician. I guess I lack this component of my being that needs such feelings of love and support to come from an external source. Somehow, I manage to go on living without it though.

I instantly thought of the propaganda film of the nazi youth sitting in the classroom singing praises to hitler whilst the teach tapped along with her baton.

They missed an oppurtunity to go completely over the top. While the little girl was singing about 'changey, change, change' a large head shot of Obama should have slowly faded in as a screen overlay.

These are pod people and you know how that ended. I propose a counter to this is to welcome BHO whenever he appears in public with the NAZI salute. We need people to show up where ever he does and stand in salute.

Sieg Heil.

That should put them over the edge.

and don't forget to wear the blue hope t-shirts.

I'm confused about the terms "astroturf" and "grassroots". I thought "grassroots" meant support that was not directed by a politician, and that "astroturf" meant that a campaign was behind what appeared to be a grassroots effort. Does whether something is grassroots or not have anything to do with the (non-political) professions or wealth level of the supporters? In other words, can the wealthy and well-connected ever be "grass-roots"? If not, does that mean that grassroots is some kind of communist ideal?

As for the creepy video, I think this just means that Ralph Nader isn't getting as many of his usual supporters. Some of you probably think that if the loony left likes Obama, that means Obama is a member of the loony left, but I think a candidate with broad moderate appeal can't be blamed for also appealing to a fringe group. If Obama was less charismatic, the loony left would go back to making weird videos for Nader. I was at a Nadar rally in 2000 (out of curiostiy only!) and I was disgusted by the brainless chanting about making a "Green Wedge". But many people enjoy that sort of thing, and they focus on on Nader, or Jesus, or whoever. It isn't Obama's fault.

It sure smells like a Zionist conspiracy. And if you listen carefully it sounds like there is Yiddish in the background.

I always had a sneaky suspicion that Obama was a Mossad plant. Backed by the Pritzkers and Mikva originally - so many Jews in his background, unexposed by the liberal media.

Now it looks more likely. Hmm. Baruch Obama. Black Jew from Africa.

This is irrefutable proof that Obama is a closet Jew:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m96chUuvoe0

It is frightening to see the long reach of Zionism.

Astroturf is the correct term, Bob. Perhaps you didn't notice the backdrop as Barack's campaign office in Venice, CA. And please spare us the obtuse argument that they are "volunteers". Except for a few people on the staff, most campaign workers on any campaign are "volunteers". These "volunteers" apparently had free access to an NBC Executive, Producer, Director, Camera operator, and Editor to help produce their "grassroots" video to display on Youtube.

Props to Jeff Zucker for finding away around those pesky laws restricting campaign contributions. No problems here:
The likes of Jeff Zucker, Holly Schiffer, Peter Rosenfeld, Darin Moran, Jean Martin, Andy Blumenthal, and Nick Phoenix rearranged schedules to participate. Holly Schiffer was able to get three High Definition cameras (Panasonic HVX250's[sic]), and an AVID editing facility. When Jeff Zucker went to pick up the camera package, Ted Schilowitz happened to be there and offered a RED camera set up on a Steadi Cam.
Good things that stuff doesn't cost money, and those people gave their time freely.

Interestingly, it was a different Jeff Zucker.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/michaelcalderone/0908/NBCs_Zucker_didnt_produce_Obama_video.html?showall

Ok...this European finds Obamajugend more than a little bit creepy!

Leland, I don't understand your argument. Again, I thought it was astroturfing when a campaign is behind the effort. I don't see any evidence that the Obama campaign wanted this icky thing produced. The video's location was stated as a private person' s house, and it looks like a private house to me (albeit a large one, decorated with Obama campaign logos. The bookshelves look nice.)

You seem to be arguing it isn't grass-roots because rich and powerful people were involved. I can't figure out whether grassroots implies non-wealthy backers, but if it does, non-grassroots well-financed support isn't logically equivalent to astroturfing. If wealthy and powerful people want to contribue to a campaign, you're right that it might run afoul of campaign contribution laws, but that doesn't mean that it is directed by the campaign.

I thought it was astroturfing when a campaign is behind the effort.

You thought wrong. Astroturf simply means that it is driven by resources from above, and is not truly grass roots.

I didn't claim that the campaign was behind it, and even if it isn't, that makes it no less creepy. Given all the other things that the campaign has done (the seal, the speech in Germany, the closed-hand salute, Michelle's exhortations that Barack is going to make us work and shed our cynicism, etc.) I would be surprised if the campaign discouraged such a thing.

But even if it did, the fact that it inspires people to do such things should be very troubling.

California's low birth rates are a blessing in disguise. Friends don't let liberal friends have kids.

Sieg Hoffnung!
Sieg Veranderung!

Abwechslung macht Freude.

Stimme fur der Neue Schleichend Demokratische Amerikanische Partei!

Wrong Zucker.

Astroturf simply means that it is driven by resources from above, and is not truly grass roots.

This distinction of "from above" vs "grass roots" seems a bit ill-defined to me at best, and Marxist at worst. Is the video not "grass roots" because some of the people who made the video are rich?

Leland was just proclaiming, in the recent debate thread on this blog, that
"This isn't India, we don't have a caste system. I'm glad McCain didn't mention the middle class, and wonder why Obama thinks having three classes of citizens in the US is a good thing. Further, why should only one class get preferential treatment? Here's an idea, treat each US citizen as equal [...]"

And then Carl Pham responded:
"Middle class" is just the 21st century Stalinist's updated version of "proletariat."

Indeed! :-)

All children must sing to the new Fuehrer or Messiah. Take your pick.

This is the scariest period I have witnessed in my life, and I'm afraid it's only just beginning. The left in this country has gone to war with truth, civility and fairness. The left controlled media is actively promoting lies and distortions across the board. It is an overwhelming onslaught and I confess I'm more than concerned. I never thought I'd ever see anything like this in America. To me, it's reminiscent of Aldus Huxley's Brave New World.

All children must sing to the new Fuehrer or Messiah. Take your pick.

This has Jonestown Kool-Aid drinkers cult, and Hilter Youth written all over it.... Scary.

Parents using their children in this manner is reprehensible. I think the phrase, "Isn't Johnny a good little communist?" is more apt than the fascist bent but it's close. When I think of "grassroots", steady-cam doesn't enter the picture. But let's turn this around and ask Bob about flat tax versus progressive tax. If we're all equal....?

Bill, please lets not turn the tables on me, because it will change the subject. If it makes you happy, assume I'm in favor of a progressive tax, or a caste system, or full blown Marxism or whatever, just so long as your distaste for those things doesn't keep you from talking to me. I'd just like to know what grassroots means.

I first heard the term "astroturf" here, from Carl's heartfelt blasts at David Axelrod, but now I'd like to figure out why "the grass roots" can't use a steadycam. Is it because grass roots is a classist expression?

This distinction of "from above" vs "grass roots" seems a bit ill-defined to me at best, and Marxist at worst.

Your definition of Marxist is what is undefined. It's pretty difficult to figure out what my comment from another thread, and Carl's (who has not even commented here) from another thread, has to do with Rand's comment. There is absolutely no connection, other than your bogus suggestion that there is.

If your are suggestion is that "from above" means a caste system, then you are a moron. This spontaneous event had a producer. When Rand refer's to "from above", he means these kids didn't wander out into the street and happen to be caught by a passerby.

These kids sang a song written by a concert pianist. They were professionally choreographed by a person with access to professional video equipment. They rehearsed the event and then performed in uniform in front of 3 cameras. We didn't see the raw footage, we saw the footage that was edited in a professional studio. All that activity was put together by someone who managed (as in, "from above") it and posted it on Barack Obama's website.

If you want to suggest that calling someone a "professional" is classist and Marxist, then it is because you are a moron that can not be taken seriously.

As for your latest:
I first heard the term "astroturf" here, from Carl's heartfelt blasts at David Axelrod, but now I'd like to figure out why "the grass roots" can't use a steadycam.

If you can find "safety bullet", then you can look up "astroturfing" and find Wikipedia:

Astroturfing may be undertaken by an individual pushing a personal agenda or highly organized professional groups with financial backing from large corporations, non-profits, or activist organizations.

I've already pointed out the video was published using professional equipment requiring substantial financial backing and distributed by the Barack's Venice Volunteer Office on his website. It may not have involved an NBC executive, but it would be an odd coincidence that so many other Hollywood professionals just happened to share names with ordinary people living in Venice, CA.

Now about Bill Maron's question?

Apparently the entire purpose of this thread is to rack up as many Godwin's Law violations as possible. Factual discussion of real fascists such as Mussolini is then "trolling". Never mind that Mussolini invaded Corfu, Ethiopia, and Albania, and tightened control of Libya. His imperialistic campaign against mostly weak Islamic states is really not the point.

Meanwhile #1: Hey Rand, he's right the Uno already said he would attack Pakistan.

What Obama actually said was that the United States should attack Al Qaeda in Pakistan with or without consent from Pakistan's central government. Campaign-minded Republicans ridiculed and criticized this statement as a naive reckless threat against a "key ally". The Bush Administration responded by attacking Al Qaeda in Pakistan without consent from Pakistan's central government. In other words, Obama was exactly right about what was going to happen, and the idea that his view of Pakistan was somehow unschooled is bogus.

Meanwhile #2: This is the scariest period I have witnessed in my life, and I'm afraid it's only just beginning.

Then you should quit scaring yourself, because all of this hysterical fear and pessimism won't do you any good. Be an optimist about America. As I've always said, it's a great country.

Leland, thank you for the wikipedia link. I really don't know what Rand meant by "from above" but I'm sure he wasn't contrasting it with wandering children, as you suggest. One of the things that is distateful about the video is that it involved children who were too young to be spontaneously political -- they would have to be orchestrated from below, from above, or in any case, from somewhere else.

So, the Wikipedia entry on "grass roots":
A grassroots movement (often referenced in the context of a political movement) is one driven by the constituents of a community. The term implies that the creation of the movement and the group supporting it is natural and spontaneous, highlighting the differences between this and a movement that is orchestrated by traditional power structures. Often, grassroots movements are at the local level, as many volunteers in the community give their time to support the local party, which can lead to helping the national party. For instance, a grassroots movement can lead to significant voter registration for a political party, which in turn helps the state and national parties.

If a person's community is Venice, CA, I think a grass roots show of support for the candidate of that person's choice might very well involve a steadycam and lots of money. And, as is usually the case, many of Venice, CA's richest citizens are highly skilled professionals. In Venice, the wealhiest professionals are often involved in the arts. (And this makes it all the more comical that the video is so completely horrible! I mean, what a waste of a steadycam!)

I find it interesting (with no sarcarsm on my part) that the term "grass roots" seems to have an implicit Marxist meaning, as the term is commonly used, and as it was used on this blog. I thought this would be interesting to other readers of this blog as well, given that many of you have interest in pointing out non-obvious examples of Fascism and Marxism.

Oh, about Bill's question: yes, of course a progressive tax is closer to Marxism than a flat tax. Is there anyone who disputes this? 'From each according to his ability' is the justification for a progressive tax.

the seal, the speech in Germany, the closed-hand salute, Michelle's exhortations that Barack is going to make us work and shed our cynicism, etc

Somehow a kitschy video involving children is the scariest production of some proto-fascist movement, and yet the "Mission Accomplished" speech exploiting the real military is totally innocent of any propaganda intention. Rand lives in a world that is totally ignorant of the definition of fascism and the strategies of fascist propaganda. The fact that Obama made a speech in Germany somehow entails that he is trying to appeal to the national socialist racists of Europe or maybe the fascists here at home defies rational discourse. I don't know how many contradictory thoughts you need to balance in your mind to hold this worldview, but there you go -- outer wingnuttia exists on a different planet, subject to different rules.

Somehow a kitschy video involving children is the scariest production of some proto-fascist movement, and yet the "Mission Accomplished" speech exploiting the real military is totally innocent of any propaganda intention.

That's right, Dinsdale, the post and most of the comments have no sense of perspective at all. I saw the video and sure, it's in poor taste. In my mind I was comparing it to the "Pray for Bush" web site and the "Jesus Camp" documentary which had a cutout of President Bush that kids were supposed to pray to.

The verdict is that on the one hand, all of these are efforts of people who have lost any healthy sense of skepticism. Nobody is going to write a song for Biden or pray for Biden and that's just as well. On the other hand, the inane Obama song wasn't Obama's doing, and by the same token Jesus Camp wasn't Bush's doing. So pointing to either one as some ominous sign of fascism is hysterical and stupid.

Certainly of the two efforts involving children, Jesus Camp is worse. In Jesus Camp they don't just have kids sing or even rehearse one song. Instead, they take kids for an entire summer of political and fanatical religious indoctrination. It would be easy to blame Bush or the GOP since the kids are asked to pray for him. But the Obama video shows that Republicans do not have a monopoly on this nonsense. So on this one, the bulk of Bush fans (not that there are all that many left) deserve the benefit of the doubt.

Also, it is easy to be way too sanctimonious whenever children are involved in anyone's bad judgment. Even 8-year-olds aren't fragile intellectual virgins. If they just sing one tacky song, no big deal, they'll find tacky songs to sing themselves anyway. Even if they're subjected to an entire summer camp of indoctrination, that's just not a very nice thing to do, but it's not a reason to call Child Protective Services.

This is the first time that I've ever heard that "grass roots" has "a Marxist meaning." Where in the world does that fantasy come from?

Rand lives in a world that is totally ignorant of the definition of fascism and the strategies of fascist propaganda.

No, that sounds more like your world.

What's probably really scaring Rand is that Obama is now up by 8 points in Florida - see Quinnipiac!!

And mainly due to Palin it seems. I guess older Americans and Jewish Americans in particular can't quite buy into her great talents.

Everything else, including the gross over-reach of this post here, needs to be filtered through that lens.

Rand, please believe me when I say how bizarre you sound when you (and Jonah, and his like-minded readers) call various things ordinary things "Fascist", but rather than responding "you're living in a fantasy world", I evalaute the argument on its merits.

In the comments above, I challenged your use of "astroturf", which led to me wonder whether the wealthy, highly paid, professional people with no official connectionn to the Obama campaign who made the video could ever be considered grassroots, or whether grassroots is a phenomenon that must involve the poor and the middle class. I wondered what you meant when your referred to the horrible "Sing for Change" video as being directed "from above", as "from above" seems to only refer to how much money the video makers had. Your use of the phrase "from above" seems to mean, in this case, "from the rich". The video is just an example of (bad) art. A Marxist believes things like "art from the rich" - bourgeois art - is different from "art from the non-rich" - proletarian art. And as Carl Pham so apty pointed out, in America, "'middle class' is just the 21st century Stalinist's updated version of 'proletariat'.

I am genuinely interested in whether you can explain why I am wrong.

Rand, please believe me when I say how bizarre you sound when you (and Jonah, and his like-minded readers) call various things ordinary things "Fascist",

That is just a commentary on how ordinary classical fascist behavior has become.

> Certainly of the two efforts involving children, Jesus Camp is worse. In Jesus Camp they don't just have kids sing or even rehearse one song. Instead, they take kids for an entire summer of political and fanatical religious indoctrination. It would be easy to blame Bush or the GOP since the kids are asked to pray for him.

Wrong. They pray that political leaders, who ever that they happen to be, do God's will.

They prayed for Clinton, Carter, etc in exactly the same way that they pray for Bush.

They prayed for Clinton, Carter, etc in exactly the same way that they pray for Bush.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxdt_f0hwUg

Yeah, right, exactly the same. Speaking in tongues, laying on hands, all of that stuff. If anyone has any video, transcript, or report of a church doing what is in that video with a cardboard cutout of Clinton, let's see it.

Rand, the following doesn't advance the argument, but perhaps you'll enjoy this story:

Some months back, I heard an interview between you and some "internet radio" guys some months back (I can't remember which technology-oriented web-based organization it was, but you recommended it here). The topic was, generally, space policy. I don't want to sound like a brownnose, but as usual, you were quite interesting and authoritative on space matters, and the interviewers treated you like the expert you are. At some point in the interview, you called NASA "a fascist organization", and the interviewers reacted with surprise and a bit of alarm. They scrambled to change the subject, but before they could, you proceeded to label a bunch of things fascist. I thought to myself, well, that's it, now he sounds like a kook, and no one will take him seriously on space policy. But then I thought, well, I suppose it is a tradoff -- he might convince people to take a look at Jonah's book. We'll never know the ratio of people who wrote you off to people who became interested. But when I think of that interview, I still have to laugh at the memory of the interviewers' alarm and surprise when you first brought up fascism! I'm so used to reading it here that it was jarring and funny to hear how the uninitiated react.

Bob, one of the themes of Jonah's book is that fascism gets a bad rap, at least insofar as it has become so closely associated with Nazism. Which isn't to say that it's good, but it has a lot of features that appeal to basic human nature. When I say that NASA is a fascist organization, I generally follow with the Seinfeldian "not that there's anything wrong with that." Now of course, I do think there's something wrong with it--I just don't think that it's as wrong as many who gasp when I use the word.

We are all fascists now, to one degree or another. But in order to at least attempt to avoid fascist behavior, it is necessary first to at least be able to recognize it. The Obama campaign is drenched in it.

In the comments above, I challenged your use of "astroturf", which led to me wonder whether the wealthy, highly paid, professional people with no official connectionn to the Obama campaign who made the video could ever be considered grassroots, or whether grassroots is a phenomenon that must involve the poor and the middle class.

This isn't about class distinctions, except to you, Bob. This is about pretending a half month of planning and organization by Obama fundraisers is really just a spontaneous Sunday afternoon event.

You, Bob, make the distinction about "official". The first time that word is used is by you in your last post. The definitions from wikipedia don't make a distinction for "official", "rich", "middle class", or "poor". Those are your distinctions that you are making, and then you call everyone else Marxist.

Leland, I suppose you addressed the following objecion in your very first comment, but I still don't see why people who volunteer for a campaign can't be "grassroots", particularly if they have no authority within the campaign.

Leland, I guess I don't see the "pretending it is a spontaneous event" going on in the video. The matching t-shirts indicate forethought, as do so many other things in the video (large collections of parents, kids knowing the words to a truly horrible song, a teacher leading the kids, etc) that I can't see how you would think they are pretending to be sponteneous. I grant that I might have missed something because I couldn't watch the video for very long without fast forwarding.

One of the themes of Jonah's book is that fascism gets a bad rap...When I say that NASA is a fascist organization, I generally follow with the Seinfeldian "not that there's anything wrong with that."

As you admit here, you and Jonah are both watering down the concept of fascism for your own ends. You've taken a page from Yasir Arafat's playbook.

No, we're not "watering it down." We're reacquainting (or acquainting) people with its actual meaning.

Children signing praise to their leader.

The near-unanimous adulation and adoration of, and the support and defense from, the media.

The encouragement and blessing of shouting down or shutting out opponents.

Increasing levels of intimidation, veiled threats, the meagre beginnings of appropriation of societal functions as party functions.

The acceptance that it is always something or someone other than the leader that is at fault. The leader is good, exemplary, and would not by definition be able to do anything truly horrible or unreasonable.

All spurred on by an elite pretending to speak for the common man.

This has happened to other democracies before and now it is again happening in America. Mike Gerson, Bob, Jim Harris, and others how much will it take for you to open your eyes? How long will things have to move in the same direction before you recognize what road you're on?

Will victory celebrations rile up the supporters by shouting "Victory!" to get the answer "Hope!" and again to get "Change!" much like "Sieg Heil" was used? Perhaps not and it's merely decoration but would that be required for at least some of the aforementioned to wake up? Would it really have to be that blatant?

Habitat Hermit,

This is off-topic, but lately, when I read your comments, I wonder what it is like for you to live in Norway. Do you feel as though you live in a repressive hell? I would really like to hear what you think about the Norwegian government's policies sometime. Obviously it is off-topic for this blog, but is there anywhere I can read what you have to say about Norway? Do you comment on other blogs about Norway (and Europe)? Even if it is in Norwegian, I'd be interested in running what you have to say through translate.google.com just to get the drift. Back on topic, slightly, do you think that any of the countries of Scandinavia offer a cautionary tale for the US Democratic party? Have they somehow avoided the pitfalls that you see the US Democratic party falling into.

I was in Luxembourg this summer, and it seemed like a socialist heaven, where everyone was happy and prosperous. One day I went hunting for slums, just to prove that they existed, but I couldn't find any. I kept asking people where the worst neighborhoods in Luxembourg City were, and everyone laughed at me. Anyway, my hosts said that i liked Luxembourg, I would really love Scandinavia, where everyone was even happier. What do you say? (And where do you say it?)

The only sore point in Luxembourg was science. When I talked to them about science, they sighed, and admitted that the US was more attractive for doing cutting edge research.

Mike Gerson, Bob, Jim Harris, and others how much will it take for you to open your eyes?

My eyes are already open --- I obliged and watched the saccharine Obama song video. So whether anyone's eyes are open is not the real question. The question is when I might take your talk of fascism seriously. The answer is when you folks are serious. You guys don't look serious at all, you look like a really bad imitation of Seinfeld. "Die Obamajugend Singt! Not that there's anything wrong with that..."

Actually the thread reads like a flailing argument not to vote for Democrats. (Maybe a failing argument as well as a flailing one, if today's polls are a good prediction.)

Bob it's quite a challenge to cram all that into a short answer but I enjoy Norway and Oslo a lot (I was born here etc. so I'm not exactly unbiased ^_^). A few words per question: most politicians and policies ok-ish but could be much better, "not really or much" (I try to keep a low profile and should post less) times five (including Scandinavian parallels), some pitfalls avoided (lots of really big differences), there are many strange impressions of Norway however this one is very insightful in some ways and explains the range of different reactions you'll get to "socialist" (or anything else) depending on who and when ^_^ One shouldn't forget how important oil is/has been to Norway (we were pretty much an underdeveloped country until oil was found). I should say less but I'm not easily pigeonholed.

Jim Harris if it was just one or two or three or even four singular incidents and if one got the impression that the Democratic party found it all at least a bit uncomfortable and said so, but they don't, for all intents and purposes they seem to think it's all perfectly fine and proper, absolutely love it, and want more. Forget about the opinions of me and others here; where do you yourself place the limit?

We are all fascists now, to one degree or another.

No, here's the funny thing, Rand. I find your political views repulsive (nothing to do with your thoughts on science, where we probably have a lot of agreement), but I actually DON'T think that you're a fascist or that, at heart, your beliefs are fascistic. I don't think I am either.

And that's the difference between me and you. I'm not a professional academic but I've read a fair amount on the history of totalitarianism. I studied modern German history at university and continue to do so today, despite the fact that it has nothing to do with my profession. You on the other hand read a bullshit fuzzy diatribe that confuses liberalism and fascism in ways that blow apart every common understanding of those terms, and suddenly you find shades of Mussolini in every Obama gesture or any idiot who admires him on YouTube.

When you say "we're all fascists", you just cheapen the whole debate. If we all are, your whole argument in this thread is flushed down the toilet. Stop it, you're smarter than that.

I actually DON'T think that you're a fascist or that, at heart, your beliefs are fascistic. I don't think I am either.

Then you missed my point completely. No surprise.

Forget about the opinions of me and others here; where do you yourself place the limit?

Where do I place the limit? Well, I agree with what Dinsdale wrote. I place the limit at real fascism, and not at the rancid Seinfeld imitation of fascism that preoccupies you and Rand.

First off I won't be all that concerned until liberal Democrats go beyond what conservatives Republicans have done with Bush and Reagan. Which is not to say that two wrongs make a right. What is true is that the atrocious Jesus Camp summer camp did not trigger any fascist takeover of America, so a disappointing and cloying Obama children's song that goes a little ways in that direction won't either.

Second I won't be all that concerned until journalists or other upstanding people are thrown in jail or their careers are ruined. Mark Steyn and WGN Radio have done their mighty best to play the victim, but they're actually doing fine, in fact they're eager to be "persecuted". Real persecution is for instance what happened to Zhao Yan. He is a reporter for the New York Times who spent three years in prison in China for political reasons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhao_Yan

I place the limit at real fascism, and not at the rancid Seinfeld imitation of fascism that preoccupies you and Rand.

Fascism isn't a binary condition.

Thanks HH! I'm reading everything, slowly, and I'm going to resist editorial comments until I finish. (Although I will say that the discussion page of the Wikipedia article on the Progress Party was even more interesting than the main article. ) For now, thank you again, and I hope my newfound interest in Norwegian politics will help inform our future debates!