Momentous Political News

Did you see the correction update:
Update/correction at 6:25 a.m. ET, Aug. 13: As a reader reminds us, Chafee officially left the Republican Party in 2007, after he lost his Senate seat, and is now an independent. Earlier, we simply referred to him as a Republican. We've updated the post to refer to him as a "Republican for Obama" since he has joined that group.

I guess there can be credit for displaying the correction, but lets put out the real title, "Republican for Democrats". Once you get the write nomenclature, it is easy to understand Rand's comment about unprincipled, and yes, Chafee is no more principled than Hagel.

The question is how many Republicans are for McCain.

Certainly, he can't count on your support.

The question is how many Republicans are for McCain.

Certainly, he can't count on your support.

The second sentence is irrelevant to the first, since I'm not now, and have never been, a Republican. From what I can tell, McCain isn't much of one, either.

pompous unprincipled idiot

No, you silly. He is a moderate.

;)

I, for one, don't like McCain. But I find Obama's far leftist positions so offensive and threatening to this nation that McCain will likely get my vote anyway. And I expect that many others feel the same way.

I'm not now, and have never been, a Republican.

But that doesn't matter, because you are by your own account a September 11th American. While you may not have reflected on this, there is evidence that you were a September 11th American before September 11th even happened. That rather neatly explains why you think that Hagel is a "pompous unprincipled idiot": He's a July 4th American. So is Barack Obama and so am I. Even John McCain is a July 4th American sometimes, although not so much this year. July 4th Americans believe in that document that was signed on July 4th, especially the opening paragraphs. We think that America is more properly defined by a noble declaration of freedom, equality, and human rights, than by a vicious terrorist attack on its soil.

Peter, my sense too. McCain will not get my support, but because of Obama, McCain might get my vote.

Jim, your "911 American/July 4th American" schtick doesn't become less idiotic via repetition.

Rand, it's just the simple truth that your protestation that you're not a Republican is stale, because September 11th Americans make level-headed Republicans look like tree-hugging metrosexual hippies.

But there are other points to make. It could be fair to disagree with Hagel on this or that issue, maybe even strongly disagree. You could even say that Hagel's endorsement is completely wrong-minded if you think that McCain is the better candidate. But your ad hominem statement that he's an "unprincipled idiot" is envious, unpatriotic, and has very little credibility. Hagel is not only a decorated Vietnam veteran, he succeeded in business whereas you didn't.

But your ad hominem statement that he's an "unprincipled idiot" is envious, unpatriotic, and has very little credibility. Hagel is not only a decorated Vietnam veteran, he succeeded in business whereas you didn't.

I'm "envious" of Chuck Hagel? That's hilarious, Jim. And it's "unpatriotic" to call him an idiot? Almost as funny.

No, it's unpatriotic to call him unprincipled off the cuff, after he fought to defend America. Whereas you consulted for a company that encouraged people to run to places like Anguilla to pay less taxes. How patriotic or principled is that? We should be skeptical, to say the least, of anybody who waves the American flag but turns out to be a loyal citizen of Malta. People who abet that sort of behavior also lack credibility.

No, it's unpatriotic to call him unprincipled off the cuff, after he fought to defend America.

What a stupid comment. There is no correlation between having consistent political principles and "fighting to defend America." Benedict Arnold "fought to defend America," too.

And I didn't call Hagel unpatriotic. You're the one who seems to be hung up on patriotism.

Whereas you consulted for a company that encouraged people to run to places like Anguilla to pay less taxes.

I did? What company was that? What the hell are you talking about now?

How patriotic or principled is that?

I couldn't say. A consultant is not responsible for the actions of the companies that he consults for, unless those actions are based on the advice of the consultant. I don't recall ever giving advice to anyone with regard to Anguilla, other than that Beal should have been smarter about dealing with the locals about launching out of Sombrero.

Your continuing attacks on my patriotism (not that I've ever made any great claims of being a patriot) and principles are just making you look even more stupid and venal than usual, Jim.

If it were Hillary vs. McCain in November I'm fairly certain I would have sat out the election this year along with a lot of other discouraged Republicans. There really isn't a whole lot of difference between the two.

However, with Obama, it's a completely different story. There is just too much at stake to hand the executive branch to a borderline Marxist with delusions of grander and a legion of fawning sycophants. McCain will be bad for conservatism, but Obama will be a 1000 times worse.

Hopefully McCain hasn't done so thorough of a job angering other conservatives that even with an Obama presidency looming they still choose to sit this election out.

I cannot support McCain. While I largely agree with his stated positions on foreign policy, his domestic positions are anathema to me to much the same extent, degree and direction that, say, Hillary Clinton's would be. While I admire McCain's military service and personal honor and heroism while a prisoner, I detest his lack of honor as a politician (Keating 5, anyone?), his utter disregard for much of the Constitution and his penchant for collectivism, and utter lack of economic sense. Did I still live in Texas, where my vote would be essentially meaningless, I would vote my conscience and write in Fred Thompson. Were Hillary the Democrat nominee, I would likely simply sit out the election. But living in the swing state of Virginia and with Obama as the nominee, I might have to vote for McCain on the grounds that I cannot stand anything about Obama's positions and quite little about himself personally, to the extent that, were Obama elected, I would be annoyed at myself if I hadn't voted against him when my vote might have counted. (Though I am going to get my kids to study some of his speeches - masterful speaker, that man.) As Leland wrote, McCain won't get my support, but he might get my vote.

Side note to Jim Harris: words have meanings, and they're not the ones you think. A dictionary, a few political theory books, and some history books might be helpful here, assuming you have any intent beyond trolling. (If your only intent is to troll, have fun.)

Though I am going to get my kids to study some of his speeches - masterful speaker, that man.

He may be a masterful speaker (I've never been impressed, myself), but there's nothing masterful about the speeches themselves (and it seems unlikely that he writes them, given the disparity between them and his unteleprompted remarks). I suspect that if one "studies" them by reading the text, they won't seem that great.

He's a July 4th American. So is Barack Obama and so am I.

So a July 4th American is the one who doesn't show his patriotism on his sleave? Who paints over the American flag and inserts his own emblem? Who goes to Europe to rally voters?

First, a confession. I voted for McCain in the 2000 primary, mainly because I thought very little of his opponent GW Bush. Second, afterwards I vowed I'd never vote for him again.

Now I guess I have to admit that I'm just another flip flopper like Kerry, Romney, Obama and McCain because NFW am I going to sit on my hands and help elect that activist socialist empty suit cult hero Obama by casting a useless protest vote. NH with its paltry electoral votes is in play. I'll wear swimmimg nose plugs and vote for McCain again.

What company was that?

Internet Transactions Transnational. According to the article, the whole point of that company was "sovereignty services", which is to say, ceding patriotism for profit.

I'll grant that you may not have understood what ITT was really about, or that you were out of the loop of its business plan. Even so, it's a clueless contrast to what Hagel has done for America in a long career.

Of course people who do something valorous for America may later switch sides and do unprincipled, unpatriotic, or even treasonous things. Yes, Benedict Arnold was one example. But there is no evidence that Hagel is such a person. All you have to go on is that you disagree with him, and calling him unprincipled just for that is a disrespectful and not particularly patriotic way to talk about a decorated veteran.

So a July 4th American is the one who doesn't show his patriotism on his sleeve?

Leland, true patriotism is in the mind, not worn on the sleeve, or on tail fins of airplanes. It's about understanding the principles on which this country was founded. Any charlatan can wave flags.

Who goes to Europe to rally voters?

Correct again. Just as Ben Franklin lived in France for nine years, and it was one of the best things that he did for America. While September 11th Americans are busy making prostituted deals with corrupt, violent countries such as Iraq and Pakistan, Obama understands that many of our truly valuable allies are in Europe. Remember what the song says: "Make new friends, but keep the old. One is silver and the other gold."

Anguilla is a different story. Anguilla isn't even a sovereign country, it's just a tax loophole.

it's a clueless contrast to what Hagel has done for America in a long career.

I certainly agree with that, particularly about the "clueless" part.

Other than fight in Vietnam, what has Hagel "done for America" (Hint: simply being a Senator is not "doing something" for America)? And by what broken logic is it that I must have "done" more for America than Hagel before I can criticize him?

I criticize Hagel, and you, troll that you are, attack me at my own web site. Do you think anyone sane finds this a persuasive line of argument?

Yes, Benedict Arnold was one example. But there is no evidence that Hagel is such a person.

I didn't say he was, but straw men aren't surprising coming from you. I was simply pointing out the logical disconnect in your statement that "fighting for America" meant that someone was politically principled.

Other than fight in Vietnam, what has Hagel "done for America"

He started a successful cell phone company, at a time when America had a huge demand for more cell phone service. And he is right about, among other things, the Patriot Act. Hagel understands that the Patriot Act is one of the most unpatriotic acts that Congress has ever passed. In fact, it's even less patriotic than "sovereignty services".

He started a successful cell phone company, at a time when America had a huge demand for more cell phone service.

Like "fighting for America," there is no obvious correlation between being a successful businessman and having principled or sensible political views.

With all the talk of taxes and patriotism, and paying less taxes and slamming politicians being unpatriotic, It's pretty clear to me that Jim Harris has just outed himself as an April 15th American.

Like "fighting for America," there is no obvious correlation between being a successful businessman and having principled or sensible political views.

You keep switching between the stones that you chose to throw in your glass house. You said that Hagel is an idiot. But if so, how come he succeeded in business while you are out of cash? Where does that put you on your sour IQ scale?

It's pretty clear to me that Jim Harris has just outed himself as an April 15th American.

Look, I don't enjoy paying taxes and I wouldn't enjoy being drafted either. I also know that the government has sometimes sorely abused both tax money and military valor. But I follow American law on April 15th, and I also registered for the draft. I didn't escape to Anguilla or Malta or any other loophole island to dodge either one of them.

But if so, how come he succeeded in business while you are out of cash? Where does that put you on your sour IQ scale?

I don't have a "sour IQ scale" (whatever the hell that is).

Just because someone makes a lot of money doesn't make him a genius, and there are plenty of examples of people with high IQs who are unsuccessful financially. You're really just beclowning yourself further with each idiotic non-sequitur illogical comment (and attack on me), Jim.

true patriotism is in the mind, not worn on the sleeve, or on tail fins of airplanes. It's about understanding the principles on which this country was founded. Any charlatan can wave flags.

Well, that can be the pretend world in your mind. In reality, American patriots that signed the Declaration of Independence (that event that makes July 4th remarkable at all) created a flag, and then carried it into battle. Indeed, years later, a song, which became this nation's anthem, was written about that flag.

Well, I'm sure you know the proper salute for loyalty.

In reality, American patriots that signed the Declaration of Independence (that event that makes July 4th remarkable at all) created a flag.

It's true that one of the signers of the Declaration, Francis Hopkinson, probably designed the American flag in his capacity as Chairman of the Continental Navy Board's Middle Department. This was clearly an afterthought at the time. All that the government had in mind was a naval emblem, not any overarching symbol of the nation. The idea of the flag as a representation of the United States itself evolved slowly over time. Even when Francis Scott Key wrote the Star Spangled Banner --- with no request from the government nor from any founder --- the flag was still largely a naval emblem.

Even accepting that the flag has become the main national symbol, wearing it has little to do with patriotism. It's fine to wear the flag whenever you want to, but this guy isn't necessarily more patriotic than other people. Very few people, even deeply patriotic people, flew the American flag on their own until the Civil War. There weren't many flag pins in presidential politics until the Nixon Administration. Nixon was hardly our most patriotic president given that he had to resign to avoid being removed from office, although he was experienced at using patriotism and the flag to tear down other people.

And no, I don't know any loyalty salute and I wouldn't use one if I did. I also don't plan to vote for Rick Husong. Fortunately he isn't running and doesn't even work for Obama.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1820023,00.html

Peter,

You got that right! This election is a definite case of voting for the lessor-of-two-evils.

There weren't many flag pins in presidential politics until the Nixon Administration.

Yeah, because mass production of such pins wasn't available. Might as well say that there wasn't many televised debates until Nixon ran for President.

But you gloss over the lack of an American flag on Obama One. He didn't just choose to not put it on, his campaign had it painted over. US vessels, ships and planes, that travel across borders don't have a flag for patriotism. The flag was there to declare nation of origin and registry. Obama took it off his plane and then went to Germany to declare himself a citizen of the world. He brought his own emblem with him.

Come on, name a famous person who gave speeches in Germany, ditched his nation's flag, and declared a new emblem for a new world order?

No question in my mind why his poll numbers fell. Again, Mccain won't get my support, but he will probably get my vote.

I'll just be glad when I have held my nose and voted for McCain. After McCain is elected, BHO can go back to the Senate and work on supporting infantcide again. If the best BHO can do is a lead within the margin of error of the polls while the MSM is doing everything it can to the point of almost running afoul of the FEC to help him, there is no way he wins.

Rand,

You called Chuck Hagel an unprincipled idiot. Jim correctly called you on it. Chuck Hagel is neither. I disagree with him consistently on political questions, probably because I have different life experience and different preferences, but that doesn't make him unprincipled or idiotic. You lost the argument with Jim before it started by a name calling post and continued with name calling comments. I lose arguments that way too, among others, as my wife sometimes reminds me.

Yours,
Wince

You called Chuck Hagel an unprincipled idiot. Jim correctly called you on it

Jim incorrectly called me on it, in my humble opinion.

Chuck Hagel is neither.

Obviously, when it comes to politics, I disagree.

If Hagel has political principles, and if he's politically smart, make the case. I've never seen any evidence for either proposition.