Maybe He Sailed Up The Rhine

As is usually the case with Democrats, they seem unable to talk about the military without slandering them or making them out to be victims.

Aha, so that's why Bush and McCain oppose the GI Bill. It's because the veterans don't want to be treated as victims.

Jim Harris wrote: "Aha, so that's why Bush and McCain oppose the GI Bill..."

John McCain is co-sponsor of a pending GI Bill right now. I doubt seriously he's opposing his own legislation (that's more of a Dem kind of move!)

Jim Harris. They oppose this version of the GI Bill.

But you knew that. And chose not to mention it. I will hazard a guess that you justify such deceptions by telling yourself that it's politics and everyone does it.

If you choose to walk down that path, this is a good place to start when you are asking yourself why the American people just don't seem to "get it," not believing the things you and your circle just know are true. It took me from 1967 to 1987 to even face walking that path, but it's worth it to get started.

John McCain is co-sponsor of a pending GI Bill right now.

It's true: After the GI Bill passed 75-22 in the Senate, McCain pulled out his own version. First he said that we shouldn't coddle veterans. Now he agrees that actually we should coddle veterans, just not too much. I don't know whether to call these tricks McSame or McLame, but either way, it's clear what Bush and McCain are really after: If a veteran is in college, he therefore isn't back in Iraq.

In principle Congress can end all of this nonsense with two veto-proof majorities. Hopefully they will manage it.

I had four uncles who served in WWII. One in the Pacific, one in N.Africa and Sicily, one in Italy, and the fourth died when I was young, so I never found out much about his service. All four returned from the war with a drinking problem and didn't want to talk about their service; yet the three I was old enough to know would have gone again (while able) if their country had called.

I was privileged to read the combat diary of one; it had a series of brief entries, talking aobut bombing raids and inconsequential things. Implicit in the notes is his questioning of his own mortality. Then there's a brief entry, in which he mentions rumors of fighting nearby that "isn't going well for our boys."

Then scrawled across the next two pages (four days) in large capital letters, is the same word, repeated:

H E L L. H E L L.

The fighting nearby was Kassarine Pass; my uncle was cut off behind the lines and spent four days sneaking back to the American positions.

In two and a half more years of war, there is not one single additional entry, a fact that speaks volumes to me.

Obama's who did what? Does he even know? Tell someone who cares.

Jim Harris, this veteran knows there are many valid reasons to oppose this GI Bill.

BTW, in which branch did you serve?

I'm withholding judgment on this until the full story comes out. It struck me as a huge overreaction when people claimed saying uncle instead of great-uncle or confusing Buchenwald with Auschwitz was any sort of meaningful distortion or gaffe. If it turns out his great-uncle wasn't there at all, that's obviously a very different story. What's up with this 6 months in the attic thing, though? Where did it come from? Obama didn't say that.

Apparent from the supporters of Obama and Hillary, a few lies to justify a move to socialism is perfectly acceptable. That's convenient since no socialist government has succeeded without lying to its citizens.

Slandering veterans is the least Obama plans to do if he becomes President. Judging by his words, Obama will have no problem eliminating freedoms the veterans fought so hard to preserve. If the Republican Party leadership ever decides to call Obama what he his, then his candidacy will be toast. Sadly, I don't think the GOP is capable of leadership.

His only Great Uncle is Charles W. Payne. It at least appears that no one by that name from Kansas served in the Army during WWII.

He has two great-uncles on his mother's side. One of them shares a name with his great-grandfather.

Great-grandfather: Ralph Waldo Emerson Dunham.
Great-uncle: Ralph Emerson Dunham, Jr.

Ralph Emerson Dunham, Jr. is the uncle in question and yes, he was one of the first American troops into Buchenwald.

His only Great Uncle is Charles W. Payne. It at least appears that no one by that name from Kansas served in the Army during WWII.

He has two great-uncles on his mother's side. One of them shares a name with his great-grandfather.

Great-grandfather: Ralph Waldo Emerson Dunham.
Great-uncle: Ralph Emerson Dunham, Jr.

Ralph Emerson Dunham, Jr. is the uncle in question and yes, he was one of the first American troops into Buchenwald.

My father-in-law served in WWII, including at the Battle of the Bulge and guarding top Nazis in prison. I'm sure he has medals but he's never shown or discussed them. He never spoke at all of his service for 50 years; then apparently when it had faded enough into history and from his psyche, he started to talk minimally about it when the subject came up.

This is what a real veteran is about - humility and the weight of all that he/she has seen and done. This is why Obama hasn't a clue about those who serve the country and why opportunists who served like Kerry and Harkin just make such fools of themselves. A veteran, especially a hero, doesn't talk about it and never brags.

I told you so! In the previous post, complete to linkage to my post which in turn linked to source materials.

Sorry, I just love being RIGHT and 24 hours ahead of the research curve.

Ralph Emerson Dunham, Jr. is the uncle in question and yes, he was one of the first American troops into Buchenwald.

Ralph Emerson Dunham, Jr. Does NOT appear on the roster of the 89th Infantry. The Obama campaign yesterday claimed SPECIFICALLY that they were speaking of his GRANDMOTHER'S brother and that he was in the 89th Infantry, not his grandfather's brother in some other unit.

This attempt to wrap himself in the camps is goin' all asplody on Obama.

Ralph Emerson Dunham, Jr. is the uncle in question and yes, he was one of the first American troops into Buchenwald.

The only problem with this theory is that the only Dunhams in the 89th Infantry Division are a C. C. Dunham and an M. G. Dunham. No R. E. Dunhams. Do you have any evidence for your claim?

The really sad thing about all of this is that Obama has so little in his own resume to point to that he has to cite the accomplishments (perhaps embellished) of relatives.

What, precisely, has Obama ever accomplished that points to his suitability to be president? What private sector experience does he have? What executive experience does he have? What has he accomplished in the Senate?

He's done community organizing. While turning down opportunities to make more money. Isn't that enough?

Jim Harris wrote: First he [McCain] said that we shouldn't coddle veterans. Now he agrees that actually we should coddle veterans, just not too much..."

Source please on the McCain quote about "we shouldn't coddle veterans."

The only problem with this theory is that the only Dunhams in the 89th Infantry Division are a C. C. Dunham and an M. G. Dunham. No R. E. Dunhams. Do you have any evidence for your claim?

Actually, the relative in question is Charlie Payne, who was in the 89th.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/O/OBAMA_NAZI_CAMP?SITE=DCUSN&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

Actually, the relative in question is Charlie Payne, who was in the 89th.

The only source for that story is "Obama's relatives." It doesn't seem to be born out by the records.

Baseless Assumptions

The records listed show where someone is living, not where they were born. There's no reason to assume that Charlie Payne, great uncle of Barack Obama, was living in Kansas at the time of enlisting.

CNN.com lists a quote from one of his other uncles as saying that Charlie came back with pictures, but never talked about it. He also said that Charlie is 83, living in Chicago. A simple Internet people search shows that a Charles Payne in Chicago, 83 years old, carries the middle initial "T".

C.T. Payne listed as being in that infantry unit is, indeed the uncle in question. Maybe if you had started with some very basic fact checking, instead of starting at your conclusion and "fixing" the facts around that, you wouldn't waste time and effort spreading unfounded gossip and smear.

The only source for that story is "Obama's relatives." It doesn't seem to be born out by the records.

The guy maintaining the 89th Infantry Division website even has a bolded note on the main page about this, and how that guy was there.

http://89infdivww2.org//index.htm

I have no doubt at all that the CT Payne of the roster was with the unit at the time and place listed--but the question remains, was he Obama's great-uncle? Because the records available to us don't show that. The records don't show CT Payne as being from Kansas. They show CW. They show CE. They show etc, but not CT.

There was no shortage of Charles Paynes running around. How do we verify that CT Payne of Chicago, God bless him, is Obama's great-uncle? All we have right now is the campaign's claim, and to date their claims keep failing to check out.

Um, guys, none of this matters. Obama could say nothing but lies until the election, and his supporters would not care. They are voting for him because he is black, and they are racist. That's all, end of story. It could come out that he murders kids for breakfast, and nothing would change - he would still be black, and therefor a suitable candidate.

Think about it, what else has he run on? Empty record, empty promises?

Rand Simberg wrote:
He's done community organizing. While turning down opportunities to make more money. Isn't that enough?

As Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton have shown, being a "community organizer" can be very lucrative. It'd be interesting to see his tax returns from those years.

And no, being a "community organizer" (isn't that another name for rabble raiser?) is hardly presidential experience, IMO.

Hey, my uncle fought in the trenches of the Civil War alongside Abraham Lincoln.

That is, my grand-uncle caught trench mouth while marching for Civil Rights in Lincoln, Nebraska.

That is to say, my great-grand-uncle wore a trench coat and drove a Lincoln.

That is to say, my grannie had a penny with Lincoln's head on it. Yeah, that's it!

Maybe now Obama can drag his 90-year-old "uncle" out of the attic, force him to admit he was the one who made up that story 60 years ago, and then UNDER THE BUS YOU GO!

Someone should find out where the guy lived after the war; I'd bet 50 bucks there was no attic. (Oh, did we say attic? We meant basement, er, bedroom.)

Poor Charlie Payne. 84 years old. Have not seen much of older sister Madeline since, well, that uncomfortable business with her marrying that Stanley Dunham fellow. Mother and Father disapproved. Stanley seemed so... sort of ... shiftless... big talker ... smooth ... salesman type ... always bragging on the next big deal. Became a furniture salesman and dragged poor Maddie all over the country with that little girl. Poor thing. Stanley named her after himself! Always wanted a boy, he said. Poor little girl, Stanley Ann!

Well, she turned out just like big Stanley. Nuttier than a bed bug. Any crazy idea and she'd be there yapping about it. She turned out to be some kind of communist atheist sort. Last we heard she went to college in Hawaii and was knocked up by some smooth, velvety voiced Kenyan fellow; yep, the one with the glasses ... Oboomerang ... I think his name was. Anyway he left Stanley Ann and the baby and then Stanley Ann left the baby with my sister to raise. Poor woman and at her age! Anyway, used to get a card at Christmas from Maddie but it must be 30 years since we last heard from her.

The hell, you don't say!! Stanley Ann's kid is that Oboomerang fella running for President??!? And he said what?!? about me?!? six months in the attic after the war?!? Like I was some kind a section 8 basket case?!?! what the hell?!? I'll sue!! Where's the number for the McCain campain?!? or one of them 527's they got nowadays!!

Any clue as to why the timeout on the comment cgi? Isn't there an MT config file setting that can fix that?

Any clue as to why the timeout on the comment cgi?

Nope. Not a one. If I could fix it, I would.

The 1940 raw census data will not be released until 2012, so that's no help.

The most likely of the other "Charles Payne" Kansas military is Charles E. of Augusta. Still wrong initial, but records do get screwed up.

If CT Payne is indeed Uncle Charlie, it's still a pretty sad comentary that Obama can't keep his grandad who raised from age 10 on seperate from his uncle in Chicago. Did he ever visit Uncle Charlie? Being in the same town and all?

The Bush group established the principle of slandering any Vietnam Vet who dared mention a realy history of the war, no matter how decorated, no matter how many limbs they had lost, no matter what. John McCain was a victim of that anti-veteran bias.

And now McCain's camp extends the disrespect to World War II veterans?

God save us, you people are just begging God to rain fire and brimstone. Have you no decency?

And now McCain's camp extends the disrespect to World War II veterans?

Where? How? I haven't seen any WW2 vets being dissed around here, just the ever-changing stories of a Senator who never served a day in his life.

The Bush group established the principle of slandering any Vietnam Vet who dared mention a realy history of the war, no matter how decorated, no matter how many limbs they had lost, no matter what. John McCain was a victim of that anti-veteran bias.

This is, in a word, bullshit.

And now McCain's camp extends the disrespect to World War II veterans?

No, Obama apprears to be trying to inflate his meager resume by citing the accomplishments of a family member. It appears he's misrepresenting those accomplishments, probably through either ignorance of military history or simple ignorance.

God save us, you people are just begging God to rain fire and brimstone. Have you no decency?

If Obama can't tell the truth, are we just supposed to sit back and not point out where he's lying? He's a pathically underqualified candidate who has done very little of substance, yet he is trying to hold himself as being above critism. No freaking way.

I saw this history of the liberation of the O. camp, here.

The part confusing me is in bold.

The story now shifts to the 89th Recon Troop, a platoon leader of which sent me the following account. "My 2nd Platoon was reconnoitering ahead of the infantry regiment (355th) on that day and we came upon this complex and two German soldiers who were guarding the front gates. We shot and killed one, and the other ran off. Setting up a modest defense, we entered the compound and saw first hand the horror of life in a Nazi concentration camp. We radioed our troop headquarters for instructions and were told to remain there, keeping the inmates contained (this was hardly necessary, as most were in their bunks, hardly able to walk) while HQ contacted the infantry to relieve us. In less than three hours, the infantry (3rd Battalion, 355th Inf) arrived and we were sent on a new mission". Lastly, another member of our society who was in the 3rd Battalion of the 354th Infantry, advised me that shortly after the 355th Infantry took over the camp, the 3rd Battalion of the 354th replaced the 355th, also for only a short time. During these days, the 355th Infantry in its entirety had apparently been attached to the 4th Armored Division. >All of this helps explain why both the 89th Division and the 4th Armored Division have been credited with liberation the Ohrdruf Concentration Camp.

Can someone what part Obama's Uncle was supposed to have belonged to?
What is the heirarchy? I could use some instruction.

Ed Darrell, is there any chance that you could tell us what you're blathering about?

How did "the Bush group" (whatever that is) "establish" such a "principle"? It's the first I've heard of it. What does John McCain have to do with this? And in what way are WW II vets being disrespected?

Surely you meant to write something more intelligent than this.

Sarah, there is reportedly a Charles T. Payne who served in the 355th which was part of the 89th Infantry Division, but was attached to the 4th Armored Division (tanks). It is presumed that this is Obama's great uncle, though there remains some confusion about middle name.

Larry J, none here disrespect the service of any WW2 vet.
Attempts to verify the accuracy of B. Obama's remarks challenge him specifically, and it's only because he HIMSELF, spoke in error, however benign the error, or rooted in his own ignorance, and no one else's.

Now the campaign statement is questioned because the name of his uncle doesn't exactly match service claims. There are possible explanations for this that support Obama's campaign statements, and explanations that don't. Looking for the correct, TRUE, explanation of the discrepancy is not a slur on any veteran in this story, least of all the uncle involved or any of the Charles Paynes who served.

The only persons being doubted here is Obama, and staff speaking on his behalf.
If Charles W. Payne turns out to have served in the Navy, do you think anyone here would sneer at that? Maybe they would sneer....at Obama's messing up the story.

Where is he buried? Seems a visit to the gravesite could clear this up, assuming there's a headstone and the middle name is etched. Or not.

Forgive me for asking the obvious question, if Charles W. Payne and Charles T. Payne have their names listed correctly in service records, and public records, and Charles T. Payne is not Obama's uncle, is there a record of what happened to Charles T. Payne who was with the 89th? Is that Charles T. Payne still living?

Lola, he is supposedly still living in Chicago, with a T in the middle.

Sarah, this is where the confusion arises. Either the genealogy site is mistaken, and he is really Charles T, or the 89th service records are mistaken and he is really "C. W. Payne," or the veteran who lives in Chicago and served in the 89th is not Obama's uncle. I think at this point I'll presume that one of the web sites (probably the genealogy site) has the initial wrong, and grant the benefit of the doubt to the campaign, even if it doesn't deserve it.

Ed Darrell, nobody here has slandered veterans in any way. The only one slandering vets is Obama, who indulges in the stereotype that all vets return home damaged time bombs, locked up in the attack until they finally explode. That is, until Messiah Obama gains power and lays hands on us collectively to heal our damaged psyches.

If you have an ounce of genuine outrage, it would be turned on BO. Instead, you defend him. We know where you really stand on the issue of veterans and slander.

The Obama team reacts on this one the same way they reacted to the professor-lecturer issue. They get an ambiguous statement to counter the story. This time the statement is not playing on words, as the one from the University of Chicado, but clearly misleading, not to say dishonest.

Did Mr. Obama refers to his grandfather's war record and its impact on him? If so, what did he say? Mr. Obama tends to recycle his stories.

His "uncle" must be dead by now. This event is supposed to have occurred 63 years ago, and his uncle did not seem to be that healthy.

One blogger should look at some of the sites running this story (there is a fair number of them not on ReaderArticles on RealClearPolitics) and prepare a factsheet: leads and conclusions.

One example:

Obama Still Lying About Liberation? Charles W. Payne of Kansas Served in the Navy, not the Army...will the media investigate?
His only Great Uncle is Charles W. Payne. It appears no one by that name from Kansas served in the liberation Army during WWII. A Charles W. Payne of Kansas served in the Navy during WWII. Did he switch branches? Is there another Charlie Payne? Or is Obama just lying? Will anyone find out?
Submitted By DoneDems - May 28, 10:32 am 39 votes

http://riehlworldview.com/carnivorous_conservative/2008/05/a-new-problem-f.html

Your article is quite good.

Charles T. Payne lives on N. Lake Shore Dr.
in Chicago, he's 65+ and he's a long time contributor
to Obama.

My guess is this is the guy. His phone number is even on the internet.

The "Charles _W._ Payne" source is clearly a mistake.

Now, did Charles T Payne enlist in Kansas, or did he reside in another state when he enlisted? Did he enlist as one of the Charles W's in Kansas or as Charles T. in Kansas?

Why does the family record say "w". Does he have, as is tradition in my family, extra middle names that sometimes result in initial sacrifices and swaps?

It's pretty clear the "W" intial in the geneology record is the wonky one. How that happened, I can think of at least a half-dozen reasons.

It's good not to let a prevaricator get the benefit of the doubt, but in this case doubt about the identity of the uncle, while not nailed down with serial numbers and birth certificates, is almost certainly that Charles T. who enlisted in Kansas.

I object to a prez who doesn't know where Auschwitz is and why that made it unlikely for his Uncle to have liberated it...and who doesn't know who did. I object to one who substitutes or fudges a specific detail for a vague one to gin up his stories, especially when he is using the emotional salience of the substitution for effect.

If his basis for policy decisions is going to be his "experience", in his own family, then he ought to know what his family did.

It would be crap to minimize even the effect of short term exposure of young men to the nastyness of a slave labor camp cleanup. I think it would affect a persons ability to readjust to "normal" life. But I think its also really not kosher to talk about that kind of service on the campaign stump and GET IT WRONG>

Sarah W

You're rewriting history. Don't forget the war had been won by that time, except for the Pacific part of it. Soldiers had seen worse, much worse, and they were alive.

1945 soldiers were much tougher than you or me.

Ceravantes - I do not doubt I'm made of lesser stuff than those men.

I read WWII biographies of soldiers, to try to know better what those men accomplished and endured.

I don't think I rewrite anything when I say men had to see and do things that they found hard to shake off, when all was said and done. As far as cleaning up after the horrors of a slave camp - a little goes a long way, I'm sure. I don't want to downplay the experience as meaningless for any soldier.

Coming back to a normal happy shiny world would have been some kind of adjustment.

So if uncle took time to reinvest and mix in the civilian world, or was changed or had a darker aspect unseen before by family...I'm not going to say there was a single thing wrong with him.

To his credit like others of that generation, he came out of the attic, even if it's just a metaphorical one, and got on with things.

I blame Obama for screwing with his Uncle's service and getting it wrong all to shine his own buckles and bolster his own bonafides.

Sarah:

You have a valid point, but I happen to be 60+. It does not mean I'm right. Burying dead bodies would not have bothered people that much in 1945. Soldiers fought to get rid of the killers, and they did succeed.

I'm not going to fall directly or indirectly for Obama's victim approach.

I'm quite normal, I cry and all that, but I would have had no difficulty in burying victims. This would have been a sacred duty for me. Soldiers do that all the time for their fallen comrades.

This Obama's story is a remake of his 2002 story:

Oct 2002: My grandfather signed up for a war the day after Pearl Harbor was bombed, fought in Patton's army. He saw the dead and dying across the fields of Europe; he heard the stories of fellow troops who first entered Auschwitz and Treblinka. He fought in the name of a larger freedom, part of that arsenal of democracy that triumphed over evil, and he did not fight in vain. I don't oppose all wars.

http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post_group/GeorgiansforObama/C5yh

Fellow troops: Russian troops for some camps.

If Charles T. Payne is alive and resides in N. Lake Shore, Chicago, why can't one go and interview him? Someone also said his phone is listed. Comeon guys, get going.

The Obama campaign should be on their toes. If they want to deflect the wave of criticisms, why not publish something factual in support of their candidate's claim? As it is, their revision of the info in Barack's speech needs further fixing, elucidation.

Now, did Charles T Payne enlist in Kansas, or did he reside in another state when he enlisted? Did he enlist as one of the Charles W's in Kansas or as Charles T. in Kansas?

There was no one listed as Charles T Payne who entered the service in Kansas, enlisted or drafted. The available records for Obama's great-uncle listed his name as Charles, Charles E., or Charles W. Payne.

There WAS a Charles E. Payne listed as drafted into the Army from Augusta, KS in 1943. Right time, right place, probably the man in question despite the middle-initial confusion.

But not Charles T. as currently indicated, or as or Charles W. as previously reported, hence the confusion.

If Charles T. Payne is alive and resides in N. Lake Shore, Chicago, why can't one go and interview him? Someone also said his phone is listed. Comeon guys, get going.

You can try. Nothing is stopping you. But as he is apparently refusing to give interviews and not answering the listed phone, good luck with that.

"My father-in-law served in WWII, including at the Battle of the Bulge and guarding top Nazis in prison. I'm sure he has medals but he's never shown or discussed them. He never spoke at all of his service for 50 years; then apparently when it had faded enough into history and from his psyche, he started to talk minimally about it when the subject came up.

"This is what a real veteran is about..."

Never discussing all the war crimes he saw and committed!

"I object to a prez who doesn't know where Auschwitz is and why that made it unlikely for his Uncle to have liberated it...and who doesn't know who did."

So you object to our current president, who probably is unable to identify on a map where Europe is?

Ed Darrell wrote:

And now McCain's camp extends the disrespect to World War II veterans?

SarahW wrote:
Larry J, none here disrespect the service of any WW2 vet.

You want to see who is slandering military members? Just look at Nick Danger's post above:

"This is what a real veteran is about..."

Never discussing all the war crimes he saw and committed!

So the uncle was on the mother's side of the family, presumably white then. Did he contribute to the racist attitudes of Obama's grandmother that made Obama's youth a living hell? Will Obama roll him under the bus the way he did granny or go with the theme that the uncle personally saved the jewish people and their religion from total extinction?

Maybe instead of finding flaws with everything from a middle initial to whether it was an uncle or great uncle, you could simply research his family tree. The internet *was* created for research purposes, you know. Posting opinions, gossip, conspiracies, and innuendo on a blog and treating it as if it were actual news is merely an unfortunate offspring. I can go to any one of thousands of websites that send spam to my email and get a concise and accurate family history dating back to when my primordial ancestors first flopped onto dry land, yet you'd rather pick at which camp it was or a middle initial instead of going about things the intelligent way? Really? I have an uncle who was in the military and was a big part of my life for 35 years, yet I only found out two months ago that he had been shot in Vietnam and received a silver star for his actions leading to it. I also didn't know until two days after he died that my father was called by his middle name by his parents and siblings. My point? It is very possible for people to not know all the facts about other family members that they see every day, never mind from a couple of generations back.

If you want to play amateur detective, than do so the RIGHT way. Provide some information rather than speculation... or is that too much to ask?