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5 Comments
Paul Breed wrote:
I see this creeping expansion of the islamic ideals as almost unstoppable. Even if we have a complete 200% victory in Iraq, whats next Paris, again?
I think that the islamist culture only understands force. Not reasoned humane polite force like we are exercising in Iraq, but pure wipe them out to the last man overpowering obliterating unreasonable force.
I think the necessary force will be measured in 100's of megatons.
Over the next 50 years this is not going to go well.
I think we will have to wait until they strike us with some kind of WMD and we suffer mass casualties, then I think our political system will do whats necessary.
rjschwarz wrote:
I have more confidence than Paul does. I think the British response to the Archibishops nonsense this week is a very good sign that at the least they know the game and they are a bit tired of playing.
The French and Germans elected more conservative governments, not because of Iraq or because they suddenly fell in love with Bush but because they see the problem as well and the voters are trying to change things using the system that is set up.
If they are late to the game, the US can hardly complain as we were late to WW2. If they are late to the game it means they will probably "over-react" a bit and the way the world has gone lately I for one will give them the benefit of the doubt when compared against Jihadist fake massacres and out-right propoganda claims.
When it's over Europe will probably feel the same deep shame the Germans feel now but it was there own good intentions and fantasy view of the world that again led them into that path so I won't sympathize.
Karl Hallowell wrote:
Ultimately, you can't build a modern society on Sharia. The arbitrariness of the rules means it isn't fair. It treats non-muslims and women in an unfair manner. One has to resort to vendetta for a number of crimes. It also doesn't take into account modern forenics. Second, there are irrational prohibitions against a considerable portion of important modern activity. For example, lending or ursury is prohibited. Also, there are laws against various sexual acts, photographs and art, and other pointless prohibitions.
Ultimately, I think any society that practices Sharia for any length of time will weaken itself. Look at what happened to Afghanistan. It's probably the smoothest transition of power since the Mongols went through.
Habitat Hermit wrote:
You know I'm going to start suggesting that it might be a good idea not to over-simplify. There is much less news in the recent events than it might look like at a glance and at least from my own interactions with Europeans and fellow Norwegians it is quite clear that most people have been a lot more aware than media might give the impression of. I'll continue to give my own experiences more credence than editorials and similar from the US or Asia (or even from Europe).
Maybe it was less obvious and/or widespread before Pim Fortuyn and van Gogh but since then it has been almost universal (although diverse in opinion) and not just among "ethnic" Europeans. Pay notion to the fact that many of those targeted are new Europeans on our side, that's true not only in Britain but elsewhere too and I think such a word as common is justified (at least in Norway, Denmark, and Britain which are the places I'm most familiar with, and I suspect it's the case in Sweden too). Iceland, Finland, the Baltic states and just about all Eastern European nations don't even have much of a problem to my knowledge (and brutal Russia is a story of its' own: see the end of the comment for an allusion).
Losing? Perhaps so on the continent, maybe in Britain but I'm increasingly skeptical. Realize that there's more than one fight going on here and neither justifies the word war just yet.
One fight is against radical islam as well as un-islamic "cultural" preferences that claim to be islamic but in truth have no islamic justification (some of which even Al Qaeda opposes, that's food for thought).
Another fight is to win based on lawful democratic measures (and that includes fighting with the same means against those politicians who are unwilling to acknowledge the problem and I'll stress that this is a subset of politicians in all European countries: not every European politician is an idiotarian --at least not locally-- and this is not a recent development although their numbers have steadily increased over the past decade).
Most Europeans would like to win both those fights and are prepared to suffer some hardship in order to do so. Of course there is a breaking point at which the "second fight" would be abandoned.
I think I'll stop there, do I really have to spell the rest of it out? Is the grand total of the European mentality that much of a mystery to the rest of the world? I would think our history (and not just the last hundred years) would give a clue or two as to what we're trying to avoid (and anyone who thinks we would be at the losing end of that is a complete idiot).
Chris wrote:
I agree with Habit Hermit. The Europeans are not going to lose this one. The longer they take to strongly react to the problem (in other words, the longer they take to feel their way of life is truely threatened), the worse it will be for those accused of threatening.
I predict death squads of ethnic Europeans in 10-15 years if things don't change. These death squands would carry out their own brand of vigilante justice in muslim neighborhoods (perhaps avenging the death of a friend killed in a high crime muslim neighborhood) if they continue to feel like their own government won't stick up for them. Many liberals won't see it coming and will be horrified by what is happening around them. Violance will escalate, suicide bombers will kill women and children and neiborhoods will turn to armed camps along ethnic lines. Ethnic Europeans, with more resources, better organization, and a feeling that they are defending their homes will win out in the end and millions of muslims will be forced to flee Europe. Maybe I'm going a bit too far, maybe not.
Either way, the best thing that can happen is a strong Eurpean response right now, before they feel their civilization is truely threatened, and while cool head still prevail.
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About this Entry
This page contains a single entry by Rand Simberg published on February 12, 2008 8:50 AM.
I see this creeping expansion of the islamic ideals as almost unstoppable. Even if we have a complete 200% victory in Iraq, whats next Paris, again?
I think that the islamist culture only understands force. Not reasoned humane polite force like we are exercising in Iraq, but pure wipe them out to the last man overpowering obliterating unreasonable force.
I think the necessary force will be measured in 100's of megatons.
Over the next 50 years this is not going to go well.
I think we will have to wait until they strike us with some kind of WMD and we suffer mass casualties, then I think our political system will do whats necessary.
I have more confidence than Paul does. I think the British response to the Archibishops nonsense this week is a very good sign that at the least they know the game and they are a bit tired of playing.
The French and Germans elected more conservative governments, not because of Iraq or because they suddenly fell in love with Bush but because they see the problem as well and the voters are trying to change things using the system that is set up.
If they are late to the game, the US can hardly complain as we were late to WW2. If they are late to the game it means they will probably "over-react" a bit and the way the world has gone lately I for one will give them the benefit of the doubt when compared against Jihadist fake massacres and out-right propoganda claims.
When it's over Europe will probably feel the same deep shame the Germans feel now but it was there own good intentions and fantasy view of the world that again led them into that path so I won't sympathize.
Ultimately, you can't build a modern society on Sharia. The arbitrariness of the rules means it isn't fair. It treats non-muslims and women in an unfair manner. One has to resort to vendetta for a number of crimes. It also doesn't take into account modern forenics. Second, there are irrational prohibitions against a considerable portion of important modern activity. For example, lending or ursury is prohibited. Also, there are laws against various sexual acts, photographs and art, and other pointless prohibitions.
Ultimately, I think any society that practices Sharia for any length of time will weaken itself. Look at what happened to Afghanistan. It's probably the smoothest transition of power since the Mongols went through.
You know I'm going to start suggesting that it might be a good idea not to over-simplify. There is much less news in the recent events than it might look like at a glance and at least from my own interactions with Europeans and fellow Norwegians it is quite clear that most people have been a lot more aware than media might give the impression of. I'll continue to give my own experiences more credence than editorials and similar from the US or Asia (or even from Europe).
Maybe it was less obvious and/or widespread before Pim Fortuyn and van Gogh but since then it has been almost universal (although diverse in opinion) and not just among "ethnic" Europeans. Pay notion to the fact that many of those targeted are new Europeans on our side, that's true not only in Britain but elsewhere too and I think such a word as common is justified (at least in Norway, Denmark, and Britain which are the places I'm most familiar with, and I suspect it's the case in Sweden too). Iceland, Finland, the Baltic states and just about all Eastern European nations don't even have much of a problem to my knowledge (and brutal Russia is a story of its' own: see the end of the comment for an allusion).
Losing? Perhaps so on the continent, maybe in Britain but I'm increasingly skeptical. Realize that there's more than one fight going on here and neither justifies the word war just yet.
One fight is against radical islam as well as un-islamic "cultural" preferences that claim to be islamic but in truth have no islamic justification (some of which even Al Qaeda opposes, that's food for thought).
Another fight is to win based on lawful democratic measures (and that includes fighting with the same means against those politicians who are unwilling to acknowledge the problem and I'll stress that this is a subset of politicians in all European countries: not every European politician is an idiotarian --at least not locally-- and this is not a recent development although their numbers have steadily increased over the past decade).
Most Europeans would like to win both those fights and are prepared to suffer some hardship in order to do so. Of course there is a breaking point at which the "second fight" would be abandoned.
I think I'll stop there, do I really have to spell the rest of it out? Is the grand total of the European mentality that much of a mystery to the rest of the world? I would think our history (and not just the last hundred years) would give a clue or two as to what we're trying to avoid (and anyone who thinks we would be at the losing end of that is a complete idiot).
I agree with Habit Hermit. The Europeans are not going to lose this one. The longer they take to strongly react to the problem (in other words, the longer they take to feel their way of life is truely threatened), the worse it will be for those accused of threatening.
I predict death squads of ethnic Europeans in 10-15 years if things don't change. These death squands would carry out their own brand of vigilante justice in muslim neighborhoods (perhaps avenging the death of a friend killed in a high crime muslim neighborhood) if they continue to feel like their own government won't stick up for them. Many liberals won't see it coming and will be horrified by what is happening around them. Violance will escalate, suicide bombers will kill women and children and neiborhoods will turn to armed camps along ethnic lines. Ethnic Europeans, with more resources, better organization, and a feeling that they are defending their homes will win out in the end and millions of muslims will be forced to flee Europe. Maybe I'm going a bit too far, maybe not.
Either way, the best thing that can happen is a strong Eurpean response right now, before they feel their civilization is truely threatened, and while cool head still prevail.