…all for the privilege of standing where temperatures can get to 100 degrees below zero.
No. Or it’s all about billionaires spending money. No again.
On mars you might wake up disoriented, thinking you’re still on earth except… You’ll hop out of bed like a youngster in an environment perfect for humans. The mansion (designed for the environment which is what architects do) you own and live in would have cost you tens of millions of dollars on earth but you built it with your own hands and the help of neighbors that share your frontier community spirit,. You have the unlimited potential and wealth of a frontier where the only thing holding you back is if you bring with you the legal encumbrances you left behind.
You’re not going to freeze. You’re not going to be gasping for breath. You will hardly ever wear a spacesuit (like the old timers did in the early years.) You will not starve, but with each new arrival more variety of foods will become available. Plants first, small animals then large.
Your skills will have value. Employment will be 100% doing anything that you enjoy. You will never have to beg someone for the right to be their slave, though you may choose to apprentice for skills with higher demand.
No idiot will talk about price gouging because everyone will understand that price is a signal for demand. Monopoly can only exist because barriers to entry are artificially raised by legal interference in a free market. Local community government equals free market. Send lawyers that say otherwise out the nearest airlock.
The lazy and stupid need not apply. There is no welfare.
If you’re a computer programmer like I was (am?) your job is the same except you will not have the latest hardware (mars will get there but probably not in your lifetime.) You can still have the latest software tools but even on earth you might have to wait past your lifetime. I know the tools I want don’t exist today except as non-integrated parts which do all exist. I’ve used all those tools but they’ve never been combined into one working whole. I lack the skills to build it myself, but I can envision it. Perhaps one day?
Ken, I feel your enthusiasm, but I fear it is not entirely accurate.
You could get all those things by moving to Antarctica tomorrow. Or most of them by moving to the middle of nowhere South America, or Africa. In fact, some people do exactly that.
The reason people move to Mars will be because its there.
The same reason we do anything. Humans aren’t terribly rational about our goal functions.
You could get all those things by moving to Antarctica tomorrow
No, you can’t. Both being cold dos not make them equivalent.
some people do exactly that
Right, it’s a filter. The people that make the one-way trip have the mind set that makes it possible. However there is no place on earth that isn’t ruled by some jurisdiction
The difference is martians will be forced to think differently. The ‘hardship’ will make them accomplish more. Mars already has everything they need.
Take for example my constant reference to mansions. Ask most ‘mars planners’ and they would have people living in tuna cans with minimum mass delivered from earth. Antarctica is accrued tuna cans over time. A martian isn’t going to tolerate that because they don’t have to.
People need space to move around in. Going outside on mars will be a limited option so they will live mostly inside. That’s not tolerable if inside is too restrictive but there’s absolutely no reason it has to be, so they won’t.
Land that sells for $30,000 in this little town where I live 50 miles from nowhere could be had on mars for next to nothing and bigger is safer because environmental systems will require maintenance. Where a smaller structure might kill you in hours, a larger structure could keep you alive for days or weeks but the repairs may only take minutes because martians will always have replacement parts themselves (going to a neighbor for such essentials will be like being an unmarried pregnant girl in the 50s.) Those that don’t will be weeded out by natural selection. Martians will be better humans as a result because they’ll have to be.
Antarctica:
…is no analogy to mars.
…solar power is not a solution.
…the periodic table has many holes in it there.
…It has breathable air. Big deal. Martians will just manage it like other things such as water. Plus those large mansions allow for graceful failure with plenty of time to fix things.
…Things required for survival are continuously delivered there. Martians will only need start up resources after which mars will provide everything they need and in the process provide full employment.
Martians will be motivated to provide there own nuclear power from abundant thorium freely available in the soil but not hazardous. They will not have a morbid fear of radiation because every martian child will understand it.
People died in nursing homes during Irma because of power failure. They didn’t have to die, but people lack the motivation to fix things that happen once in a decade or two. People will die on mars as well but those things will be such well known risk that it will be mitigated. They will not have the luxury of being stupid.
“The reason people move to Mars will be because its there.”
No, it will be to get away from the idiots on Earth. The history of the human race is the history of the smarter and braver people trying to escape from the idiots and nannies.
As for Antarctica, no, you can’t move there because governments won’t let you. And living on a huge ice sheet means you lack most of the readily available resources found in the rest of the solar system (personally, I think Mars is a dead-end, because finding the resources you need will be much easier in free space than on a lifeless planet).
The history of the human race is the history of the smarter and braver people trying to escape from the idiots and nannies.
Nailed it Edward. Good catch.
finding the resources you need will be much easier in free space than on a lifeless planet
That is a very interesting statement worthy of thought. Both mars and free space have all the required resources. Both will have different acquisition.issues. It may be that each is superior to the other based on the motivation for going.
If individual freedom is the primary motivation, then using a pickup truck wins IMHO. The solar system has more stuff than mars alone, but it will be a while before we need that much.
No, it will be to get away from the idiots on Earth.
… who you will need to support the colony in space. Making the colony autonomous is about as realistic as planning on using unicorn farts and magic fairy dust for your life support systems.
The history of the human race is the history of the smarter and braver people trying to escape from the idiots and nannies.
This was back from when people lived in small, mostly economically independent units (if it was ever true; “nannies”?) It’s certainly not true anymore. Leaving the integrated economy is an exercise in deprivation and masochism now.
“Making the colony autonomous is about as realistic as planning on using unicorn farts and magic fairy dust for your life support systems.”
As I just said in the other thread, we’re not going to be colonizing much of the solar system until colonies CAN be autonomous. We can’t afford to send a fast ship from Earth every time an important part breaks. Nor can we afford to send millions of tons of prebuilt components from Earth.
“This was back from when people lived in small, mostly economically independent units”
And that’s exactly the future we’re heading into with automation and local manufacturing.
And that’s exactly the future we’re heading into with automation and local manufacturing.
I don’t think that’s true at all. I think we’re moving toward a future with an ever increasing set of materials and processes used to make an ever increasing set of products. The ever more specialized materials will be made in specialized plants and distributed globally. Far from becoming more localized, manufacturing will be increasingly distributed around the world.
Paul, you’ve heard of colony leaders burning their ships? This was to prove the lie you are retelling (it’s an old lie.)
Before we race off to Mars I think there are a ton of things to be done in LEO GEO and cis-Lunar space that can more immediately bootstrap the space industry on Earth. Not that Mars isn’t a worthy goal. And I’m not a particular fan of the idea of a moon colony as a necessary precursor to a Mars colony. They are distinct objectives with their own rationales for existence.
Also I like the idea of crewed grand tours. I.e. fly by missions to Venus and Mars. These could be realized very soon. A Venus flyby within the decade of the 2020s with not much more hardware than is already nearly at hand. Then taking the idea of space habitats out to the nearby planets and perhaps even some of the more interesting objects that orbit them like Europa, Titan and Enceladus.
This in addition to, not instead of Mars colonization.
This is the idiotic picture in peoples minds…
…all for the privilege of standing where temperatures can get to 100 degrees below zero.
No. Or it’s all about billionaires spending money. No again.
On mars you might wake up disoriented, thinking you’re still on earth except… You’ll hop out of bed like a youngster in an environment perfect for humans. The mansion (designed for the environment which is what architects do) you own and live in would have cost you tens of millions of dollars on earth but you built it with your own hands and the help of neighbors that share your frontier community spirit,. You have the unlimited potential and wealth of a frontier where the only thing holding you back is if you bring with you the legal encumbrances you left behind.
You’re not going to freeze. You’re not going to be gasping for breath. You will hardly ever wear a spacesuit (like the old timers did in the early years.) You will not starve, but with each new arrival more variety of foods will become available. Plants first, small animals then large.
Your skills will have value. Employment will be 100% doing anything that you enjoy. You will never have to beg someone for the right to be their slave, though you may choose to apprentice for skills with higher demand.
No idiot will talk about price gouging because everyone will understand that price is a signal for demand. Monopoly can only exist because barriers to entry are artificially raised by legal interference in a free market. Local community government equals free market. Send lawyers that say otherwise out the nearest airlock.
The lazy and stupid need not apply. There is no welfare.
If you’re a computer programmer like I was (am?) your job is the same except you will not have the latest hardware (mars will get there but probably not in your lifetime.) You can still have the latest software tools but even on earth you might have to wait past your lifetime. I know the tools I want don’t exist today except as non-integrated parts which do all exist. I’ve used all those tools but they’ve never been combined into one working whole. I lack the skills to build it myself, but I can envision it. Perhaps one day?
Ken, I feel your enthusiasm, but I fear it is not entirely accurate.
You could get all those things by moving to Antarctica tomorrow. Or most of them by moving to the middle of nowhere South America, or Africa. In fact, some people do exactly that.
The reason people move to Mars will be because its there.
The same reason we do anything. Humans aren’t terribly rational about our goal functions.
You could get all those things by moving to Antarctica tomorrow
No, you can’t. Both being cold dos not make them equivalent.
some people do exactly that
Right, it’s a filter. The people that make the one-way trip have the mind set that makes it possible. However there is no place on earth that isn’t ruled by some jurisdiction
The difference is martians will be forced to think differently. The ‘hardship’ will make them accomplish more. Mars already has everything they need.
Take for example my constant reference to mansions. Ask most ‘mars planners’ and they would have people living in tuna cans with minimum mass delivered from earth. Antarctica is accrued tuna cans over time. A martian isn’t going to tolerate that because they don’t have to.
People need space to move around in. Going outside on mars will be a limited option so they will live mostly inside. That’s not tolerable if inside is too restrictive but there’s absolutely no reason it has to be, so they won’t.
Land that sells for $30,000 in this little town where I live 50 miles from nowhere could be had on mars for next to nothing and bigger is safer because environmental systems will require maintenance. Where a smaller structure might kill you in hours, a larger structure could keep you alive for days or weeks but the repairs may only take minutes because martians will always have replacement parts themselves (going to a neighbor for such essentials will be like being an unmarried pregnant girl in the 50s.) Those that don’t will be weeded out by natural selection. Martians will be better humans as a result because they’ll have to be.
Antarctica:
…is no analogy to mars.
…solar power is not a solution.
…the periodic table has many holes in it there.
…It has breathable air. Big deal. Martians will just manage it like other things such as water. Plus those large mansions allow for graceful failure with plenty of time to fix things.
…Things required for survival are continuously delivered there. Martians will only need start up resources after which mars will provide everything they need and in the process provide full employment.
Martians will be motivated to provide there own nuclear power from abundant thorium freely available in the soil but not hazardous. They will not have a morbid fear of radiation because every martian child will understand it.
People died in nursing homes during Irma because of power failure. They didn’t have to die, but people lack the motivation to fix things that happen once in a decade or two. People will die on mars as well but those things will be such well known risk that it will be mitigated. They will not have the luxury of being stupid.
“The reason people move to Mars will be because its there.”
No, it will be to get away from the idiots on Earth. The history of the human race is the history of the smarter and braver people trying to escape from the idiots and nannies.
As for Antarctica, no, you can’t move there because governments won’t let you. And living on a huge ice sheet means you lack most of the readily available resources found in the rest of the solar system (personally, I think Mars is a dead-end, because finding the resources you need will be much easier in free space than on a lifeless planet).
The history of the human race is the history of the smarter and braver people trying to escape from the idiots and nannies.
Nailed it Edward. Good catch.
finding the resources you need will be much easier in free space than on a lifeless planet
That is a very interesting statement worthy of thought. Both mars and free space have all the required resources. Both will have different acquisition.issues. It may be that each is superior to the other based on the motivation for going.
If individual freedom is the primary motivation, then using a pickup truck wins IMHO. The solar system has more stuff than mars alone, but it will be a while before we need that much.
No, it will be to get away from the idiots on Earth.
… who you will need to support the colony in space. Making the colony autonomous is about as realistic as planning on using unicorn farts and magic fairy dust for your life support systems.
The history of the human race is the history of the smarter and braver people trying to escape from the idiots and nannies.
This was back from when people lived in small, mostly economically independent units (if it was ever true; “nannies”?) It’s certainly not true anymore. Leaving the integrated economy is an exercise in deprivation and masochism now.
“Making the colony autonomous is about as realistic as planning on using unicorn farts and magic fairy dust for your life support systems.”
As I just said in the other thread, we’re not going to be colonizing much of the solar system until colonies CAN be autonomous. We can’t afford to send a fast ship from Earth every time an important part breaks. Nor can we afford to send millions of tons of prebuilt components from Earth.
“This was back from when people lived in small, mostly economically independent units”
And that’s exactly the future we’re heading into with automation and local manufacturing.
And that’s exactly the future we’re heading into with automation and local manufacturing.
I don’t think that’s true at all. I think we’re moving toward a future with an ever increasing set of materials and processes used to make an ever increasing set of products. The ever more specialized materials will be made in specialized plants and distributed globally. Far from becoming more localized, manufacturing will be increasingly distributed around the world.
Paul, you’ve heard of colony leaders burning their ships? This was to prove the lie you are retelling (it’s an old lie.)
Before we race off to Mars I think there are a ton of things to be done in LEO GEO and cis-Lunar space that can more immediately bootstrap the space industry on Earth. Not that Mars isn’t a worthy goal. And I’m not a particular fan of the idea of a moon colony as a necessary precursor to a Mars colony. They are distinct objectives with their own rationales for existence.
Also I like the idea of crewed grand tours. I.e. fly by missions to Venus and Mars. These could be realized very soon. A Venus flyby within the decade of the 2020s with not much more hardware than is already nearly at hand. Then taking the idea of space habitats out to the nearby planets and perhaps even some of the more interesting objects that orbit them like Europa, Titan and Enceladus.
This in addition to, not instead of Mars colonization.