You ought to be able to sell stuff without a permit. What’s amazing is that this was published in The Atlantic. Have they gone all Ayn Rand on us?
Selling stuff to people — bad. Forcing people to buy stuff — good, as long as the government does it.
And people wonder why there are no jobs? Only economically clueless people.
You’ve just got it all wrong Rand. The government should control everything. Otherwise, it would just be chaos. We have to guarantee happiness. We can’t just allow people to use liberty in their life to pursue happiness willy nilly. That’s just crazy.
The government has to force people to buy things. Where else would they get the money? This silly concept of individual liberty and freedom is just so extreme. Lastly…
How dare you call govt. tyranny to be petty!
For a number of years I’ve run a P/T concession stand at various events selling kettle korn. It is, obviously, food. However, it is a rare food. It’s constituent parts require NO refrigeration, NO specific cooking temps, and NO holding temperature.
Regardless of that, we have had to deal with Health Departments all over the southeast. In point of fact, every place has a health department that sets the rules and does the inspections and they require a sign off to begin cooking. It’s a ‘permit to prepare’ or some other such legal weazel words there about. They do a great job, until I get in line for my ‘permit to prepare. I’ve literally had shouting contests with the inspectors when they looked at our tent and REFUSED to inspect us!!
“…but YOU have nothing to inspect!!!”
“I told you that a month ago and you told me I STILL had to pay the fee FOR an inspection!”
“…but, you have NOTHING to inspect.”
“…then just sign the form and allow me to make some money!!”
“…I can’t do that…you HAVE nothing to inspect for me to sign off about…”
(it’s odd how many of these guys are “Taxi Driver” fans. They think talking like De Niro, changing the word inflections around, it will make me understand, or will scare me into going away quietly)
Eventually they make 2 or 3 phone calls and sign the thing. But in the mean time, they’ve held me, and a bunch of other people FROM making money. All in the name of keeping is all safe.
Isn’t that cute!?
This slashdot poll worries me:
http://slashdot.org/poll/2230/I-have-started-Q-businesses-where-Q–
at the time of posting, 33% say they’ve never started a business and have no plans to ever. Thankfully, second is “one” with 19% and “zero, but I plan to” with 18%.
I selected the “more than 3” option which is the lowest, at 3%. That just saddens me. I had started 3 businesses before I was 18.. and I hardly live in a country where entrepreneurs are hero worshiped like I remember the US once being.
This sort of thing is why I think Joseph Tainter has got something with his theories on the collapse of complex societies. Over time societies get more and more complex, with stricter laws and higher and higher compliance costs, until it all falls over.
This isn’t petty tyranny. It’s tyranny. Jim, Gerrib, Matula, Bob-1, and the rest of the trolls have tingles running up their legs as they read of their heroes (the government) stepping on people. This is how it starts, though, and we had better stop it. Now.
It just looks like protectionism to me.. note that residents don’t need these permits.
If I was in one of the council meetings I might offer up, “Attempts to restrict legal commerce – always succeed. Do you want your constituents to be prosperous, or not?”
“If you’re afraid that competition from our local residents might knock some Chinese factory worker out of a job, I suggest you run for office in China, because your days as an elected representative here are coming to an abrupt end.”
etc.
There’s also this that causes mixed feelings (emphasis added):
What’s required for a permit?
One hundred dollars, getting fingerprinted by police, and a criminal background check. “If the applicant has been convicted of any misdemeanor or felony, the permit application may be rejected,” the law states. And if you’re granted a 30 day permit? Once it expires, you’re ineligible to apply again for six whole months.
If someone has been convicted of a crime and paid his debt to society, preventing him from earning a living will guarantee his return to crime. While I’m a law and order kind of guy, once the penalty has been served, a person should get a chance to make an honest living. How much of the recividism rate is due to ex-cons being unable to find a job?
The particular rules for this city seem a little onerous but in general who cares if you have to have a business license? And when starting a business you might as get incorporated in some form for liability reasons.
Larry, stop making sense. Besides, these vile would-be-merchants can always get a job somewhere else…oh, wait…
wodun,
the problem enters, in situation like this, where a bunch of other cities will jump on the band wagon. And at $100 per town, it gets EXPENSIVE in a hurry. It puts the business guy into a position of working days a month to just pay for the permits.
If all you do is cut grass, clean gutters, etc. you might not make $100 a day. And finally, if you have to pay the gub’ment $100, that’s a C Note OFF the table at home.
There’s also the second part of the text I cited above:
And if you’re granted a 30 day permit? Once it expires, you’re ineligible to apply again for six whole months.
The permit costs $100 and is only good for 30 days ($3.33 a day). Once that 30 day period is over, you can’t apply for another permit for 6 months. What precisely is someone supposed to do for 6 months with no legal way of making a living – go on welfare perhaps, move, or resort to more direct means of getting money such as crime.
At some point, liberals will realize what they have become–the guards in the Stanford Prison Experiment.
Burns Harbor, IN, the lead-off town in the Atlantic article, is a resort community with just over 1,000 people. This is hardly the first time they’ve been in the paper – about two or three years ago they set up a gate, manned by village police, on the main road into town.
They really want to be an exclusive gated community for their high-net-worth residents. This is not surprising, since the town was founded in the 1960s from a private gated community. Their vendor ordinance is really just another attempt to keep “undersirables” out. It has nothing to do with business – until Bethlehem Steel went bankrupt 90% of town revenues came from that company.
Mfk said: ” Jim, Gerrib, Matula, Bob-1, and the rest of the trolls have tingles running up their legs as they read of their heroes (the government) stepping on people.”
I own and run my own business. You’re an idiot.
Sorry for the redundancy. But getting called a troll by long time readers of this blog makes me see red. If you want to hear about business regulations from the point of view of a small business owner who is a Democrat, you can engage me in conversation. Maybe you’ll sharpen your thinking. Instead, you engage in idiotic name calling. I’ve made it a point to be civil on this blog, as has Chris, Jim (the second Jim), and Thomas. So why keep up with the namecalling?
You make a valid point Bob. Ridicule is contagious. It is important for others to understand your thinking.
once the penalty has been served, a person should get a chance to make an honest living
Funny how this is the commonly held believe of those that “don’t care about others”
Bob, what would it mean to the bottom line of your business if the cost of regulatory compliance dropped by 30%?
… and conversely, what if the cost of regulatory compliance increased by 30%?
Ed,
the former would be a huge help and the latter a reason to close down my P/T business until someone with business sense turned it around at the gub’ment.
Was there a prize for knowing the right answer?
Yeah, we get our country back… was that too extreme?
Der Schtumpy Says:
“the problem enters, in situation like this, where a bunch of other cities will jump on the band wagon. And at $100 per town, it gets EXPENSIVE in a hurry. It puts the business guy into a position of working days a month to just pay for the permits.”
Ya, that is true but it probably varies depending on the type of business. A food cart is more likely to have to pay for more short term permits than say a plumber.
By what right does any town have to require a fee from anybody?
Too fundamental a question?
Isn’t this why company towns have such a bad name. What’s the difference?
Bob-1,
Out of curiosity, what business-friendly policies are championed by the Democrats you vote for? How are they more business-friendly than their opponents? And how do they seek to alter the course of the national party leadership in that regard?
Ken, a town can legitimately charge a fee for service. In my case the water and sewer system are owned by the town and I pay a flat amount every two months.
Regarding the widespread practice of a town charging for a business license, it is not immediately apparent what the service rendered is in exchange for that fee. Failure to pay is certainly given the “nice business you’ve got here, be a shame if anything happened to it” treatment.
a town can legitimately charge a fee for service
Yes, if mutually agreed for a specific service. So what service is the town providing? Allowing somebody to exercise freedom is not a service.
sewer system are owned by the town
No it isn’t. Who exactly is this town guy. Have you ever met him?
Ken, the town would be a corporation and acts as a corporate entity. It can own things the same way Exxon does.
So how did this Corptown acquire it’s assets?
The town I’m in built the sewer system and water system; we paid for that out of our property taxes decades ago. The bimonthly fees cover the operating expenses and repairs and upgrades. So my town is clearly providing a service (in this case a utility) and can thus legitimately charge a fee for that service.
The service provided by licensing businesses within the town boundaries is not so readily apparent. Not saying that that there isn’t a service there, just that I can’t see it. I’m willing to accept that there is a service provided, if anyone can suggest something plausible.
You missed my point Ed (not hard, I’m not exactly clear.) I’m questioning foundational issues. I would contend that a town is not as formal a body as some suppose. What I think happens is people accept certain assumptions without really thinking it through.
Before you have a town you have ground without people. Then people move in and either claim or buy land. They may start calling themselves some town name long before anything formal is announced. They informally create roads which everybody uses (both on owned property and off.)
Suppose now they formerly incorporate the town. What are it’s assets and why? Incorporated, the town can be seen as a person. It can own assets. However, the right to tax needs to be examined a bit more carefully. Also, when it’s incorporated, those assets it assumes need careful examination as well.
The problem is a lot of assumptions regarding the towns power over others. Many of those assumptions I would contest.
Ed,
I’ve asked that very question, “…where’s the benefit to the business owner of buying the permit…”. I asked a guy who once worked for me while he was in college. I asked because he is a city councilman where I used to live.
He is, a moderate Democrat. His answers had MUCH more to do with the city KNOWING, things, COLLECTING things, REGULATING things, than anything that benefited me / the business owners.
Even when I pointed out that I paid city sales taxes on all the goods that I purchase, paid state sales taxes on goods purchased, and county sales taxes, and the state then hit me for income tax, the county ‘provided’ me inspections, the state provided information via the Dept of Commerce about sites where I could sell my wares, the city proved…n-o-t-h-i-n-g!
I can honestly say that for the city business permits I’ve had to purchase, in 3 different states, for my concession business, I just can’t find the ‘value added’ for ME as a business owner. The feds, state and county offer little enough, but the cities just want the permit fee, as an income center.