Jay Carney says that bin Laden wasn’t a Muslim leader?
Well, he seems to have been a leader, so is he saying that he wasn’t a Muslim? These people are tying themselves up into logical knots.
18 thoughts on “Then Why The Muslim Funeral?”
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A solid swath of the left regards judging anyone to be sacrilegious unless you’re an actual judge. (Or we’re talking about political opponents – in which case the ends justifies any means whatsoever.)
This is an extension of the incessant ‘appeal to authority’ reasoning (with the caveat ‘only my authorities count, because you are an idiot’).
Making a open -personal- judgement is anathema, yet actually omnipresent. “Well, he said he as a Muslim, so who am I to judge otherwise?”
Or the desire to see Mohammed Atta tried in civilian court. Or the idea that justice prevailed in the case that did come to court – with 99% of the evidence dumped overboard “by a real judge!”
Lets get real.
OBL’s body was disposed of at sea; (a) to remove the opportunity for his followers to use it as a rallying point, and (b) to deny US hawks the opportunity to put it on display as a way to wind up Islamists, that’s also the why he wasn’t captured alive. The “Muslim burial” line was nothing but an excuse to chuck him overboard quickly.
I’m sure we’re all smart enough to have worked this out, and all this hawkish digging is about trying to find an excuse to attack Obama.
OBL’s body was disposed of at sea; (a) to remove the opportunity for his followers to use it as a rallying point, and (b) to deny US hawks the opportunity to put it on display as a way to wind up Islamists, that’s also the why he wasn’t captured alive.
I don’t know anyone who objected to his being fed to the fishes, other than Muslims.
Do you have any other straw men?
Fair point Rand, though there have been people on the right who have objected to the speed with which the body was disposed, admittedly giving other reasons, but the point was that quick disposal at sea removed the possibility of people turning the body into an opportunity to push agendas that didn’t suit the Obama administration.
Still waiting for OBL’s carcass to wash ashore here on Cape Cod. When it does, I’ll post photos of the pig feast.
I think that President Obama ordered a Muslim funeral just so the Obama Critic industry would have something to write about. After all you need to keep them employed 🙂
Yes, Lord knows there’s nothing else we can criticize Obama on.
Yes, but by giving you such irrelevant but emotional issues like Bin Laden’s burial at sea and the Birth Certificate to discuss you don’t spend time discussing the really complex and difficult issues like exactly how to cut the budget with triggering a recession or reduce the national debt without long term damage to the economy.
And the issues themselves make you look like extremists to the rest of the voting public who are more worried about jobs and earning a living to care about it.
The average American could care less about what the Muslims think of the burial at sea. That is their problem. For the average American Bin Laden’s death is a time to raise a beer in celebration of Seal Team 6 and then go back to work. For example, the San Diego Padres celebrated Monday by giving two free tickets to members of military in celebration of a job well done.
That should be “without triggering a recession”
The thing that few have mentioned anywhere I’ve followed the conversations, is the SOP for burying dead enemy bodies.
It’s quite normal for the U.S. military to dispose of those bodies by giving them a decent burial, WITH their normal religious renderings, if known and if possible.
I’m sure that the top decision on UBL was made by someone outside the Pentagon, but we’ve been burying dead Muslims since, late March of 2003. I think they’ve got it down pat by now ceremony wise.
While I am not a BHO fan, let me defend him (some).
This whole thing past the original announcement seems long, drawn out and unplanned. And I don’t blame Obama, he has ‘advisers’ and ‘experts’ like All POTUS has. He just made the mistake of depending on them (again). How many ‘facts’ have changed since Sunday night?
Water boarding? No water boarding? Armed? Unarmed? Firefight? Non one was armed for a fire fight? Human shields, no one left alive? Survivors all moved to Afghanistan?
Who’s running this thing? Dr. Howard, Dr. Fine & Dr. Howard? By their own timeline they had almost 8 months to think about this situation. We know they’ve war gamed the American people going crazy over food, housing and money problems. They’ve even created a military reaction to that type domestic problem. BUT no one thought in Mr. Obama’s Brain Trust, for almost 8 months, about what to do if and when we get UBL, while they were actively looking for, and narrowing down where he was? C’mon, are they that dumb?
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I fear answering that type question.
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And remember, these are the people who are going to protect us after the Muslim Brotherhood lights off a small nuke at Ground Zero, in bin Laden’s name.
Yes, but by giving you such irrelevant but emotional issues like Bin Laden’s burial at sea and the Birth Certificate to discuss you don’t spend time discussing the really complex and difficult issues like exactly how to cut the budget with triggering a recession or reduce the national debt without long term damage to the economy.
Becasue the last thing Obama wants is to discuss is really complex issues like how to cut the budget and reduce the national debt? Is that really what you meant to imply?
A mutual friend of Rand’s and mine suggested I post my comments regarding this post from Facebook to this venue. Here goes – I’ll post them as they appeared on Facebook:
Rand! I am surprised at you. That is far too easy and beneath your usual cogent writing.
Is the Pastor Terry Jones a Christian leader? Would the majority of Christians consider him so? (We both already know the answer to that)
Many different kinds of leaders – that word needs qualification to have meaning. Many different degrees of faithful. What one professes to believe may indeed not be what one practices at all.
Hmmmmm, your posts here and your blogs of late seem to have taken many left turns at Albuquerque from their previous style and topic.
All that said, I wish I’d been well enough during Space Access to spend some time with you. It’s been far too long that we had a chance to catch up.
Second comment on Facebook in followup to another mutual friends’ comment about my initial post. I’ve removed my friend’s name in respect of his privacy:
(Unidentified mutual friend)…. you’ve identified the more violent and angry organizations and their followers within the greater Muslim community. I have no doubt what you’ve described is accurate.
However that leaves the far larger population of non-violent Muslims absent entirely. My point isn’t that there are not those within the Islamic faith who say Osama bin laden as a leader, my point is that in the perspective of the 99% majority he was not.
We can certainly follow the thread of those who did follow him and were only too pleased with his call to violence. That will indeed be true. But it will not be all of the truth nor even the majority of the truth.
Third FB post:
Oops! Still getting the hang of the Enter-Shift for the next paragraph – that posted a little too soon!
What fascinates me, and I say this without sarcasm but with deeply felt passion is our stories. Each individual, each community be it a tiny knitting circle, a local parish, a city, state, nation ad infinitum may experience the same objective circumstance yet integrate it in entirely different ways. The stories we tell ourselves about the circumstances create our viewpoint and thus our actions be they statements or literal actions.
This fascinates me! Change the interpretation, change the outcome.
An example outside of our current topic: my very warm and friendly Syrian neighbors and the issue of public cleanliness of our residences.
I was raised to pick up trash on my yard including curbside of my street and in the road. As it happens, I am the *only* one on my block who does so! At first that truly irritated me. What? You can’t see the crumpled up McDonalds bag on the curb? Are you *really* going to leave the dead balloons and their strings from your boy’s first birthday party on the yard to blow willy-nilly with the wind? Are you kidding me that the sidewalk is a perfect receptacle for your cigarettes?
Being new to the block I went about the cleaning quietly and created my front garden (rental property – my landlord Loves me!) In time they too took some pride in my gardening and the cigarette throwing only happens from their guests. All without saying a word.
So, I could take away, as I did for some time, that these folks just do not value cleanliness, they are a *filthy* people! And, in regard to this specific area, there is certainly truth to that. I could make the dialogue I use in describing them and it would be 100% accurate – but it would not be complete, it would be a thin story and in the larger context inaccurate.
I noticed over time that twice a week the mother got out a mop, bucket and soap and scrubbed her cement porch, front steps, walkway to the public sideway and area of the public sidewalk in front of their apartment (we live in two separate duplexes that face inward to a common garden area).
Wash the cement sidewalk? Are you kidding me? To what purpose? Leaves fall from the trees daily, the lawn sprinklers that go off each day clear off any debris quite well. But week in, week out every Wednesday and every Saturday (as part of her clean their home in preparation for their extended family Sunday dinners) she washes that cement sidewalk! She also washes and dries the large Turkish rug in their living room each Saturday.
While the thread about their yard is 100% true, it would be inaccurate to say they are a filthy people. It would not do them or my own powers of observation and discernment justice. It would also create resentment and affect our relationship as neighbors.
I’m pleased I looked anew at my resentments a few months after I moved in. Had I not I would have likely missed out on an interesting relationship with an exceptionally loving and vibrant family. I certainly would not have enjoyed the wonderful foods they often gift me with and the fascinating exchange of ideas about the world we have come to share.
With Rand’s article I am not implying that no Muslims anywhere fit his and now your (Unidentified Mutual Friend) description, I am saying that those words foster a categorical perspective that does not apply to the majority of Muslims around the globe. As such it does not serve a larger dialogue without the use of specific qualifiers.
To extrapolate from the few to the all when the facts do not fit does not serve any of use in our efforts to thrive as one human people on planet earth.
And in full disclosure:
There was a 4th Facebook post in followup to the mutual friend’s additional comment which I received as an email.
As that 4th post went further into the topic of religion rather than the initial issue of Osama being referred to by Rand as a “Muslim Leader” which general reference I took exception to, I’ve not included that post here.
Upon reflection had Rand referred to Osama as a terrorist leader or leader of terrorists I would have been satisfied.
Even Muslim terrorist leader isn’t complete enough. He was a terrorist. Period.
He happened to profess a faith in Islam, but it was not his faith that defined him, it was his murderous actions. It is also most definitely not the Islamic faith as it is practiced by the vast majority of Muslims.
The men who kill and lead others to kill doctors who perform abortions are not referred to as Christian leaders. To a one they all proclaim to be devout Christians and yet they are not referred to simply as Christian leaders nor are they referred to as Christian terrorists.
They are usually referred to as anti-abortionists. Anti-abortionists, as if somehow their position against abortion mitigates their murderous actions. In fact they are terrorists, nothing more or less. The commit terrorist actions and most ardently lead others to do.
We Americans do not define them by the faith they profess to practice, but if we were to follow Rand’s example above we’d simply refer to them as Christian Leaders. I have no doubt the vast majority of Christians around our world would take exception to this.
In each example professed faith does not define the person, their murderous actions do.
Terrorists are terrorists whether they follow Islam, Christianity or profess to believe in the Great Pumpkin. Our dialogue about terrorists would be more meaningful and effective if we did not define them by their professed faith alone.
Denise: great writing there, some thoughtful points to consider.
Many leaders in the Muslim world, real ones like the head of the Palestinian Authority and the head of the Turkish government, both of whom won elections to lead their people, have voiced approval of this operation. Everyone within Islam understands what a toxic pack of backwards fanatics are running under the Al Qaeda label. Very few wish to live in their world, or under the New Caliphate that they wish to impose.
The brave demonstrators in Tarir Square didn’t shout for OBL, they shouted for freedom and they continue to fight for a decent government run by the consent of its people.
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I have one more comment, back to the top of this thread: Al claims: “A solid swath of the left regards judging anyone to be sacrilegious unless you’re an actual judge.”
That is known as the Straw Man error. I’ve seen it often, but never, ever with a name attached as a real example. Ever.
As a followup to the basic question: was UBL a “Muslim leader”, an actual Muslim writing for CNN put together a good Q&A article on precisely this question.
http://inthearena.blogs.cnn.com/2011/05/02/iftikhar-islam-and-muslims-are-not-the-enemy/
One point made: Al Qaeda and their fellow jihadis have murdered more Muslims than non-Muslims over the past twenty or so years, many of them clerics with the temerity to disagree with their radical interpretation of the hadiths and the Koran. So, if we decide to treat all Muslims as enemies, until proven otherwise to the standards set by the likes of Pamela Geller, for example, then we are screwing ourselves.