This is a serious problem. But at least we’re the best at building space ships.
15 thoughts on “Ships”
They need to do what NASA did with COTS and build up manufacturing capabilities with new companies.
Considering how expensive land is around existing facilities, we also need shipyards in new locations. Where are some good spots? Puerto Rico?
Puerto Rico won’t work until the economic obstacles are removed such as the Jones Act and being held to federal minimum wage. And even if you built the necessary shipbuilding infrastructure, you would still have a major logistics problem – like how to get the steel there.
Considering the issue, this site alleges that a large container
ship which can carry almost 24k TEU (twenty-foot equivalence units) has about 220k tons of steel in it. At today’s price of $700 per ton of steel (which is probably not the same ton as the early one nor the right alloy mix), that’s about $150 million just in steel. Access to cheaper steel (and labor) would be a significant advantage.
“you would still have a major logistics problem – like how to get the steel there”
Ships… hah.
A bigger issue might be workforce but it wouldn’t be hard to make that an attractive place to live
Mainly because of the US Navy.
Look at the Constellation class frigates: Supposedly 85% an existing design but thanks to the Navy fecking around with it, it’s about 15% existing design.
And as a result, the frigate program is running years late and well over budget. The meddlers can’t leave well enough alone. They keep adding and changing the requirements until the result is inevitable. Seawolf subs: program cut to three. LCS: program cut short and many are already being retired. Zumwalt destroyers: program cut to three. Ford class aircraft carriers: years late and well over budget. You’d think someone would notice a pattern, but that would require actual thinking and a willingness to make changes in procurement.
I sometimes wonder if the best thing we could do for the USN is to take every single person who works at NAVSEA and deposit them on the Kerguelen Islands sans WiFi, to eat rock moss for the next 20 years.
Sadly, though, the problems run even deeper than that.
And the LCSs never met their design specs. Never mind each one ties up TWO crews.
Navy also passed on some cheap alternatives to upsize our capabilities
Hmm, that leads to the logical conclusion that we should get Elon going on building ocean-going ships. I’d hate to do anything that would distract him from SpaceX though.
SpaceX is the best at building spaceships, the US (see Artemis) and OldSpace (see Starliner) not so much.
Karl Hallowell may be onto something. Remember the US indigenous steel industry? Me too, but them I’m 74 years old. And I’ve not only worked in a shipyard, I also once worked in a foundry. It’s all difficult, dangerous, and interesting work.
The collapse of the U.S. shipbuilding industry happened through policy choices made by government, not just competition from abroad.
You don’t go from the country that built 151 aircraft carriers during WW2 to the industry freefall we had reached by the 1980’s in just a couple generations without an assist by the state.
Maybe we can build the container equivalent to naval concealed carry, for US flagged but foreign built container ships aka Auxiliary Cruisers.
Arsenal ships. People worry about them in a near peer fight but a lot of what we need them for are jerks like the Houthi.
Build nothing. The US owns eight Algol-class steam turbine cargo ships that can run as 38mph in the open sea. Put the USMC’s towed howitzers aboard, along with assorted missiles (cruise and ballistic) and party hard.
They need to do what NASA did with COTS and build up manufacturing capabilities with new companies.
Considering how expensive land is around existing facilities, we also need shipyards in new locations. Where are some good spots? Puerto Rico?
Puerto Rico won’t work until the economic obstacles are removed such as the Jones Act and being held to federal minimum wage. And even if you built the necessary shipbuilding infrastructure, you would still have a major logistics problem – like how to get the steel there.
Considering the issue, this site alleges that a large container
ship which can carry almost 24k TEU (twenty-foot equivalence units) has about 220k tons of steel in it. At today’s price of $700 per ton of steel (which is probably not the same ton as the early one nor the right alloy mix), that’s about $150 million just in steel. Access to cheaper steel (and labor) would be a significant advantage.
“you would still have a major logistics problem – like how to get the steel there”
Ships… hah.
A bigger issue might be workforce but it wouldn’t be hard to make that an attractive place to live
Mainly because of the US Navy.
Look at the Constellation class frigates: Supposedly 85% an existing design but thanks to the Navy fecking around with it, it’s about 15% existing design.
And as a result, the frigate program is running years late and well over budget. The meddlers can’t leave well enough alone. They keep adding and changing the requirements until the result is inevitable. Seawolf subs: program cut to three. LCS: program cut short and many are already being retired. Zumwalt destroyers: program cut to three. Ford class aircraft carriers: years late and well over budget. You’d think someone would notice a pattern, but that would require actual thinking and a willingness to make changes in procurement.
I sometimes wonder if the best thing we could do for the USN is to take every single person who works at NAVSEA and deposit them on the Kerguelen Islands sans WiFi, to eat rock moss for the next 20 years.
Sadly, though, the problems run even deeper than that.
And the LCSs never met their design specs. Never mind each one ties up TWO crews.
Navy also passed on some cheap alternatives to upsize our capabilities
https://x.com/maphumanintent/status/1839724409239597093
Hmm, that leads to the logical conclusion that we should get Elon going on building ocean-going ships. I’d hate to do anything that would distract him from SpaceX though.
SpaceX is the best at building spaceships, the US (see Artemis) and OldSpace (see Starliner) not so much.
Karl Hallowell may be onto something. Remember the US indigenous steel industry? Me too, but them I’m 74 years old. And I’ve not only worked in a shipyard, I also once worked in a foundry. It’s all difficult, dangerous, and interesting work.
The collapse of the U.S. shipbuilding industry happened through policy choices made by government, not just competition from abroad.
You don’t go from the country that built 151 aircraft carriers during WW2 to the industry freefall we had reached by the 1980’s in just a couple generations without an assist by the state.
Maybe we can build the container equivalent to naval concealed carry, for US flagged but foreign built container ships aka Auxiliary Cruisers.
Arsenal ships. People worry about them in a near peer fight but a lot of what we need them for are jerks like the Houthi.
There are other options that are more robust too
Why not build 100 of these?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sa%27ar_4.5-class_missile_boat
Build nothing. The US owns eight Algol-class steam turbine cargo ships that can run as 38mph in the open sea. Put the USMC’s towed howitzers aboard, along with assorted missiles (cruise and ballistic) and party hard.