This was inevitable.
So they want to claim a body on which no member of the tribe has set foot, based purely on the fact that they’ve been looking at it for centuries.
How many spaceships does Navajo Nation have?
[Update a while later]
Link fixed, sorry.
Your link is broken.
Just wait ’til the Muslims start making similar claims. Rumor has it that Allah was originally the god of the Moon until repurposed by Muhammad, which is why phases of the Moon play a prominent role in Muslim calendar and in other religious rites.
And didn’t the Mayans have a thing for Venus (as the Evening and Morning Stars?).
SMH
I don’t think any country can “recognize” a claim of ownership over any land it doesn’t have sovereignty over. Or at least of claim of said sovereignty/ownership by another country which does have sovereignty. If I own an island that is part of say French territory the US government would likely accept that as proof of ownership. By the 1967 Celestial Bodies Treaty no country has said authority to claim as sovereign territory (or ownership) any outer space heavenly body. This would include the Moon/Mars/Asteroids. You can “mine” moon rocks and they are your property once you have possession of them but not the land upon which the rocks rested before you collected them. Likely that would apply in the (hopefully) not to distant future to Asteroid mining:
“Meet the Asteroid That’s Made of $5 Trillion Worth of Platinum”
https://futurism.com/meet-asteroid-thats-made-5-trillion-worth-platinum
You can “own” what you mine from the Asteroid but no one can claim sovereignty (or ownership) of the Asteroid itself. An unlike the better known asteroid 16 Psyche, this one (UW158) is an Earth orbit crossing Asteroid not a main belt one.
“Earlier this year, an asteroid zoomed past Earth at a distance of about 1.5 million miles (2.4 million kilometers). “
Addendum: not sure what would happen (from an ownership point-of-view) if someone attached rocket motors/ and or mass driver to said asteroid and moved into a more favorable orbit for mining:
“The asteroid is around 2000 feet long and 1000 feet wide”
definitely small enough to move….
Yes, moving 50 billion tons should be a snap.
After figuring out how to fasten the rocket and propellant tanks to it. It spins fast enough that anything loose on the surface would fly off.
“Yes, moving 50 billion tons should be a snap.”
Well…probably more like single digit billions of tons…
Yes you would likely have to de-spin it first and you would probably use some kind of nuclear powered mass driver (using the least valuable parts of the asteroid (slag) as propellant) to de-spin/move it.
Also I didn’t mean move it quickly (probably ~several years) and was thinking initially at least of merely altering its orbit to make trips back and forth easier. Of course at some point you might look to moving it to some kind of high earth orbit or deposit it in one of the Earth moon Lagrange point for easy access.
2nd Addendum there apparently is some doubt it is actually worth that much:
“Also notice that radar observations have shown that the asteroid contains no more metal than any usual rocky asteroid (see
https://twitter.com/astrotweeps/status/865105034459189248
for example). The assumption that it’s metallic was erroneous.”
https://space.stackexchange.com/questions/10048/how-is-it-known-that-asteroid-2011-uw158-has-so-much-platinum
Oh well…I guess my arguments are still sound in general but (possibly) incorrect in the specific example I posted.
Pushback against such things is coming, and overdue.
“Pushback against such things is coming, and overdue.”
There is a lot of blather in Australia about “native title” and “sacred sites”. There is even a conveniently mobile “sacred site” called the Wagel or Rainbow Serpent. Usually found where a newly discovered mineral deposit is found.
Some of the indigenes (the ones who are about as aboriginal as Elizabeth Warren is Native American) want to claim they were “invaded” in 1788. Fine. An entire continent was invaded and taken over by 600 convicts and 200 Royal Marines, likely the scrapings from the Royal Marines brigs. Since when do the losers get to set terms?
Native Hawaiians get a voice how the observatories on Mauna Loa are operated. Native Indians are supposed to get a voice in how the dams on the Snake and Columbia rivers are operated. Native Indians were allowed to destroy the remains of Kennewick Man.
Losers get to decide when the winners are inflicted by White Guilt.
All people know the Moon is divine.
“My first girlfriend turned into the moon.”
Sokka
People seem to forget how the concept of sovereignty and rules of ocean navigation developed on Earth. Basically, it’s practicality. If you inhabit a space and can defend it, you are sovereign. And you can exclude people you don’t like from the region around your territory that you can defend. Simple. Now at the present time, the UN and various nation states may make noises about nothing in space belonging to anyone. This holds up as long as nobody can get there. But once people actually arrive at places in space, and occupy the territory with enough firepower to repulse others, the rules will naturally change.
I agree. For all the laws we have on this world, enforcement is by men with guns. Absent enforcement, law is voluntary. Who’s out there to enforce UN treaties?
“Who’s out there to enforce UN treaties?”
No one will have to be out there to enforce UN treaties for centuries to come. An embargo will bring any space colony to heel in short order.
Space advocates must give up fantasies about giving terrestrial authority the big middle finger if they want to be taken seriously.
“An embargo will bring any space colony to heel in short order.”
A global embargo managed by whom? Since when have all the countries in the world many of whom have competing interests and or hostilities toward each other get on the same page in order to enforce said global embargo? A global embargo on say for instance asteroid mining with trillions of dollars of precious metals at stake would probably be about be about as effective as the global war on drugs.
“A global embargo managed by whom?”
Think the scenario through, Tim. If a bunch of American citizens start claiming large parts of the moon (or wherever) as their property do you imagine the Chinese, Russians, Indians, etc. are going to approve and support them? They would be *demanding* that the US do something about it immediately and threatening all sorts of retaliations and reprisals if the US did not. Change the nationalities as desired and you will get the same result.
“If a bunch of American citizens start claiming large parts of the moon (or wherever) as their property do you imagine the Chinese, Russians, Indians, etc. are going to approve and support them? ”
Well nobody American or otherwise can legally claim ownership they might land on the moon/asteroid be it a government and/or private base /colony and start mining etc they wouldn’t have to claim to own the moon or the asteroid just land on it and start mining it. That wouldn’t be illegal as far as I know that would be part of the common use provision of the outer space treaty just like the United States collected moon rocks during the Apollo era. They didn’t claim the moon as territory (all or in part) but that didn’t stop them from collecting rocks/mining if you like.
Space is militarily very important to Earthlings.
But military power is less significant in space.
Space rocks are powerfully weapons and everyone in space is well armed.
It seems to me if we become spacefaring that we end war on Earth.
It seems that on Mars or the Moon, those that own the best and deepest tunnels, have “military might”
and with Venus orbit, though the control outer planet regions, have the fortresses.
Or war becomes more defensive or having most power. And wealth is power. And people are power.
So, rather peaceful, unless way out there, where murder still rules.
The planet Venus is a fortress. And nuclear Orions work very good in it’s atmosphere. And the gas giants are other fortresses. But Venus is central to our solar system.
Btw:
— Alex 2 days ago
I am committed to the 3rd option of space station near Venus onto Mars, Mercury, Asteroids belt and beyond! In fact I was reading and thinking about Venus as a gateway to our solar system for the last few days! How and when do we start? Contact me at 630 656 7906 or arktosa@tcd.ie
Looking forward hearing from you to discuss plans and strategy for such mission.
Alex–
I don’t what to say to Alex.
Isn’t it a given that Venus is important in terms of spacefaring??
Nuclear weapons didn’t end war. No reason to believe space rocks will get that job done either.
Politicians didn’t end wars.
They haven’t reduced global CO2 emissions either.
A serious way to reduce CO2 emission, is to reduce taxes.
Also mine ocean methane hydrates.
Are ocean methane hydrates mineable, how long are governments going to delay this?
And in terms of governments, measuring anything:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdxzqHZypTk&t=5620s
Listen to cartoon guy.
Save the planet, burn the hydrates! Methane is even more of a greenhouse gas than CO2. Burn them before it’s too late!
Methane is even more of a greenhouse gas than CO2.
Two issues about that:
1) Methane, unlike CO2, is not stable in the atmosphere and chemically has a half-life of about 5 years.
2) The absorption bands of methane at 3.3 and 7.8 um while multiple times that of CO2 at those wavelengths also overlaps with water vapor at those same wavelength. Water vapor is about 25% that of methane at those wavelength but given the relative abundance of water vapor vs methane and given the fact the two are relative well mixed in the atmosphere (i.e. there is no “methane layer” in the atmosphere) it is likely that water vapor to a large extent screens out some of the IR that would have been otherwise absorbed and re-emitted by methane, thus mitigating its effects.
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/10/14/facts-about-methane-ignored-to-support-climate-narrative/
David Spain: thanks for the link. That was fun.
“People seem to forget how the concept of sovereignty and rules of ocean navigation developed on Earth.”
Yes. And the point I was trying to make is that as long as the ’67 Celestial Bodies is in effect no country can (legally) claim sovereignty (or ownership) over the Moon/Mars/Asteroids/Venus or any other heavenly body. Practically speaking if the US/China/Russia had a base on the moon/mars/whatever they could protect their “property”; that is whatever equipment/physical structures/ etc. they brought with them or built while there. Just not own (theoretically) the land upon which said base is erected. Just like EXXON can own its oil drilling platforms in international waters just not the sea upon which they float. Nobody owns the oil in the seabed in international waters (by law) but they definitely own it once it is pumped and loaded onto EXXON’s super-tankers. Likewise with “mining” water and other volatiles on the Moon; or precious metals from Asteroids.
If you land somewhere, occupy it, and can defend it, you fulfill the 9/10ths of the law. You effectively own it. Treaties can be torn up and/or ignored. Some countries do this on a daily basis.
Read more about the history of the sea. A country owned the waters it had cannons pointed at, and just as far as those cannons could shoot accurately.
That’s still accurate today. Canada claims ownership over large parts of the Arctic, but we don’t have enough ships to really control it. Russian ships traverse it and we complain, but complaints don’t really change anything.
International law will prevent sovereignty claims just as long as no country puts weapons on the moon and says to the other countries “molon labe”. So far that hasn’t happened because resupplying those weapons has been prohibitively expensive and not in any way worth the hassle.
“International law will prevent sovereignty claims just as long as no country puts weapons on the moon and says to the other countries “molon labe”. So far that hasn’t happened because resupplying those weapons has been prohibitively expensive and not in any way worth the hassle.”
Yes; this below will apply only as long as what you say is correct:
“States shall not place nuclear weapons or other weapons of mass destruction in orbit or on celestial bodies or station them in outer space in any other manner”
The second someone lands on said 5 trillion dollar precious metal asteroid (and even if the one I posted isn’t worth that much there are 10K earth crossing asteroids 140M or so in size) and starts mining it all bets are off. In the 300-1000M range there are 5K, and bit under a thousand one Kilometer or greater. Not counting ones yet to be discovered most likely at the smaller in of the range.
https://cneos.jpl.nasa.gov/stats/size.html
Wonder what happens when an American backed group (public or private the US gov would still be responsible for their actions per the treaty) lands on one end of the asteroid and begins mining and Russian/Chinese back group lands on the other end? Or especially at the smaller in of the range decides to nuclear powered mass-driver move it into a more favorable orbit, claiming it as “minded property” in the process?
“Navaho Indians attempt to claim ownership of the Moon, delay Vulcan launch Glenn Reynolds is pretty sure that someone is looking for a payday. I wonder if the Navajo are going to try to go to court to get their way. In any case, this blatant claim of ownership of the moon is a violation of the Outer Space Treaty.”
http://curmudgeons.blogspot.com/2023/12/#170320313707030738
Looks like someone else is agreeing with me about the Outer Space Treaty. But as you say possession is nine tenths of the law; after all Balboa could claim the Pacific Ocean in the name of Spain. What he couldn’t do was occupy (exclusively) and defend it. Somewhere there is probably a tribe of Southern Hemisphere natives who look to the sky and “worship” the milky way galaxy, sure the would claim “ownership” of the whole shebang if they could.
“outer space is not subject to national appropriation by claim of sovereignty, by means of use or occupation, or by any other means”
https://www.unoosa.org/oosa/en/ourwork/spacelaw/treaties/introouterspacetreaty.html
NASA should issue a formal statement reaffirming that, in accordance with all applicable laws, they will not disturb any “native” sites or remains that they or their agents or robots find on the Moon or any other celestial body. And then do nothing else. Especially never mention so-called “sacred sites” (or casinos).
I think what’s happening is the Navajo know they need some credits with the Greens and Progressives in order to get those new power plants for selling California electricity on-line with a minimum of interference. Funny how those never seem to have a problem with “sacred lands”.
The Moon is important to a lot of people and it should be treated with respect deserving of it’s status. Good thing is that there are other places to go. It is a big solar system and people need to change their frame of reference.
Other locations won’t have the same considerations and constraints because they lack the cultural significance.
There is a vast middle ground between the two attitudes presented at the link and in the comments, reality is likely to land there.
The you and what army isnt a serious approach an last I checked no one here even has an army and not many can claim their dad can beat up the other dads either.