Always good hearing from John Lott; and as he said the overwhelming majority of defensive gun uses don’t involve the defender’s firearm being discharged, merely displayed. These tend to not be reported to the police or media so they slip under the radar.
There is a lot of debate about this in the 2a community. Should you pull your gun when you are not about to pull the trigger?
The moment you pull your gun out, you create that life/death situation if it didn’t already exist and it should be treated just as serious as if you actually did shoot someone. For your own protection, the first thing you should do when safe is report the incident. Often, the first person to talk to the cops is whose side they take.
The line of thinking is that you should report what happened to police right away so that your assailant doesn’t report you first for pulling a gun on them.
I’m gonna say yes and it depends. You don’t threaten someone with a gun if the situation doesn’t qualify for lethal force, but if the situation has become potentially threatening even if I can’t take a shot immediately because I can react quicker if the gun is already out.
Yeah, as you and Tim note, it is situational. Since it is a grey area and not every encounter is covered by twelve different angles on video, a lot of lawyers recommend to report it to the police so your story is first on record.
Another thing is that when you carry, how you act in general and interact with other people changes because the consequences of potential actions are so severe.
“There is a lot of debate about this in the 2a community. Should you pull your gun when you are not about to pull the trigger?
The moment you pull your gun out, you create that life/death situation if it didn’t already exist and it should be treated just as serious as if you actually did shoot someone.”
When I said “displayed” that probably wasn’t the right phraseology. Agree with you about not wanting to “brandish” the firearm you could be charged with such if said attempted assailant reported it to the police. Imagine if someone attempted to rob/assault you and you drew your concealed firearm & raised it to shooting position and your would be assailant realized you were armed and cut & ran. You likely wouldn’t want to shoot him in the back as he ran away. Thinking something like that is what typically happens, rather than the defender shooting at him.
There are also a large number of situations defused because of the uncertainty of whether the possible “victim” has access to a weapon. Robbing or threatening a “possibly” armed person is usually quite unattractive.
Years ago it was well known that you did not follow a construction worker to his truck while threatening him. It’s less well known now but still matters. I have been protected at times by the fact that many people like me do have weapons in their trucks, even though I personally never did.
Another one that is debated a lot. Do you keep a weapon off body? How do you store a gun in your vehicle that is accessible but also safe from theft?
My favorite anecdote was the one about the guy shooting up a bar in Dallas and then half the bar patrons pulled out their own guns. Lol! Never draw on someone in a Texas bar unless you’re looking for a gunfight.
Where I live, it is illegal to concealed carry inside a bar.
“On June 12, 2016, Omar Mateen, a 29-year-old man, killed 49 people and wounded 53 more in a mass shooting at Pulse, a gay nightclub in Orlando, Florida, United States. Orlando Police officers shot and killed him after a three-hour standoff.” -Wikipedia article on the Pulse shooting
When the President Barack (Hussein) Obama was confronted with the idea that the Pulse massacre could have been stopped by armed patrons, he huffed “the notion that the answer to this tragedy would be to make sure that more people in a nightclub are similarly armed to the killer defies common sense.”
WTF? I mean, who did they send in to stop the shooter? Unarmed social workers?
“In Dallas, also in July 2020, a man “just started spraying” a sports bar with an “assault-style weapon” at full-capacity. But the shooter fled when he was “confronted by armed patrons” who shot back at him.”
Did that “defy common sense?” What constitutes “common sense” on Obama’s planet?
I have a Virginia concealed carry permit, which I have yet to exercise. That’s mostly because the places I frequent aren’t dangerous. The place I really would need to use it would be in the District of Columbia – but I can’t, because there is no reciprocity. An arms violation would jeopardize my security clearance, and hence my future earnings ability.
But a friend of mine who also went through the training for a concealed carry permit relayed an anecdote that has stuck with me. In his training class, they went through the usual lecturing on carrying only where permitted by law. Those places are usually the last place you need to carry. One of his classmates was quizzed as to whether he would illegally carry in the District, and he replied “Hell yes. I’d rather be judged by twelve than carried by six.”
I still wouldn’t do it, but that just means I don’t go into DC very often.
“When the President Barack (Hussein) Obama was confronted with the idea that the Pulse massacre could have been stopped by armed patrons, he huffed “the notion that the answer to this tragedy would be to make sure that more people in a nightclub are similarly armed to the killer defies common sense.””
Well consider the source. Under Florida law at the time you were not allowed to carry inside the club even if you had a valid CCW license because alcohol was served. This exclusion included not only the patrons (presumably possibly drinking) but staff as well. Including the night manager, bouncers, bar tenders other security (other than presumably police) who more than likely wouldn’t be drinking on the job. Police arrived and following standard procedure (no. one priority being officer safety) setup outside the club, said “standoff”. While they were standing pat, the shooter was inside and well shooting up the patrons in the place. Armed staff inside the club would obviously have had an incentive to immediately respond the moment the shooting started well before the police arrived.
President Barack (Hussein) Obama has an armed protection detail. It makes a difference when you can have armed guards, doesn’t it?
If we were all angels there would be no need for weapons (against each other)… We aren’t angels.
“President Barack (Hussein) Obama has an armed protection detail. It makes a difference when you can have armed guards, doesn’t it?”
That didn’t sound quite right so I went back and checked because I remembered thinking the same thing initially but learning differently. An armed security guard (off-duty cop) did engage Mateen and the first police on the scene entered the building and engaged him as well. It was only after he had retreated to the bathroom and holed up with hostages (stopped shooting them) that the standoff began, with SWAT taking the place of the initial officers inside the building. All told, the police responded pretty well, but of course were “minutes away” and someone bent on violence can do a lot of damage in that time.
“Under Florida law at the time you were not allowed to carry inside the club even if you had a valid CCW license because alcohol was served.”
You’re right, of course. In fact, my wife and I attended the WMAL Free Speech Forum event last Saturday, where conservative radio hosts Larry O’Connor, Vince Coglianese, Chris Plante and Mark Levin appeared and discussed current events. As we were driving there, my wife asked – out of nowhere – if I was carrying. It was the first time she ever had. I wasn’t, precisely because Virginia concealed carry laws don’t allow it in places that serve alcohol…and, I never even touch a firearm if I’ve had anything to drink. I was, however, wearing my IWB holster just as a matter of practicing the art of non-printing.
I think the laws should be revised to allow concealed carry in bars or other places serving alcohol, as long as the person carrying refrains from consuming any adult beverages. I mean, I’m able to restrain myself even at home…how tough is it to be a “designated shooter” on a night out?
“I think the laws should be revised to allow concealed carry in bars or other places serving alcohol, as long as the person carrying refrains from consuming any adult beverages.”
Yes. And even if the police did engage the shooter:
“An armed security guard (off-duty cop) did engage Mateen and the first police on the scene entered the building and engaged him as well. It was only after he had retreated to the bathroom and holed up with hostages (stopped shooting them) that the standoff began, with SWAT taking the place of the initial officers inside the building.”
The fact is the unarmed people inside were helpless/defenseless against the shooter totally dependent on the police. The Night shift manager/bartenders/bouncers would likely not have been drinking on the job law or no law and if they had been allowed to carry could have immediately intervened the second he started shooting people.
Always good hearing from John Lott; and as he said the overwhelming majority of defensive gun uses don’t involve the defender’s firearm being discharged, merely displayed. These tend to not be reported to the police or media so they slip under the radar.
https://crimeresearch.org/
There is a lot of debate about this in the 2a community. Should you pull your gun when you are not about to pull the trigger?
The moment you pull your gun out, you create that life/death situation if it didn’t already exist and it should be treated just as serious as if you actually did shoot someone. For your own protection, the first thing you should do when safe is report the incident. Often, the first person to talk to the cops is whose side they take.
The line of thinking is that you should report what happened to police right away so that your assailant doesn’t report you first for pulling a gun on them.
Active Self Defense channel covers stuff like this from time to time. https://www.youtube.com/c/ActiveSelfProtection/videos
Active Self Protection*
I’m gonna say yes and it depends. You don’t threaten someone with a gun if the situation doesn’t qualify for lethal force, but if the situation has become potentially threatening even if I can’t take a shot immediately because I can react quicker if the gun is already out.
Yeah, as you and Tim note, it is situational. Since it is a grey area and not every encounter is covered by twelve different angles on video, a lot of lawyers recommend to report it to the police so your story is first on record.
Another thing is that when you carry, how you act in general and interact with other people changes because the consequences of potential actions are so severe.
“There is a lot of debate about this in the 2a community. Should you pull your gun when you are not about to pull the trigger?
The moment you pull your gun out, you create that life/death situation if it didn’t already exist and it should be treated just as serious as if you actually did shoot someone.”
When I said “displayed” that probably wasn’t the right phraseology. Agree with you about not wanting to “brandish” the firearm you could be charged with such if said attempted assailant reported it to the police. Imagine if someone attempted to rob/assault you and you drew your concealed firearm & raised it to shooting position and your would be assailant realized you were armed and cut & ran. You likely wouldn’t want to shoot him in the back as he ran away. Thinking something like that is what typically happens, rather than the defender shooting at him.
There are also a large number of situations defused because of the uncertainty of whether the possible “victim” has access to a weapon. Robbing or threatening a “possibly” armed person is usually quite unattractive.
Years ago it was well known that you did not follow a construction worker to his truck while threatening him. It’s less well known now but still matters. I have been protected at times by the fact that many people like me do have weapons in their trucks, even though I personally never did.
Another one that is debated a lot. Do you keep a weapon off body? How do you store a gun in your vehicle that is accessible but also safe from theft?
My favorite anecdote was the one about the guy shooting up a bar in Dallas and then half the bar patrons pulled out their own guns. Lol! Never draw on someone in a Texas bar unless you’re looking for a gunfight.
Where I live, it is illegal to concealed carry inside a bar.
“On June 12, 2016, Omar Mateen, a 29-year-old man, killed 49 people and wounded 53 more in a mass shooting at Pulse, a gay nightclub in Orlando, Florida, United States. Orlando Police officers shot and killed him after a three-hour standoff.” -Wikipedia article on the Pulse shooting
When the President Barack (Hussein) Obama was confronted with the idea that the Pulse massacre could have been stopped by armed patrons, he huffed “the notion that the answer to this tragedy would be to make sure that more people in a nightclub are similarly armed to the killer defies common sense.”
WTF? I mean, who did they send in to stop the shooter? Unarmed social workers?
“In Dallas, also in July 2020, a man “just started spraying” a sports bar with an “assault-style weapon” at full-capacity. But the shooter fled when he was “confronted by armed patrons” who shot back at him.”
Did that “defy common sense?” What constitutes “common sense” on Obama’s planet?
I have a Virginia concealed carry permit, which I have yet to exercise. That’s mostly because the places I frequent aren’t dangerous. The place I really would need to use it would be in the District of Columbia – but I can’t, because there is no reciprocity. An arms violation would jeopardize my security clearance, and hence my future earnings ability.
But a friend of mine who also went through the training for a concealed carry permit relayed an anecdote that has stuck with me. In his training class, they went through the usual lecturing on carrying only where permitted by law. Those places are usually the last place you need to carry. One of his classmates was quizzed as to whether he would illegally carry in the District, and he replied “Hell yes. I’d rather be judged by twelve than carried by six.”
I still wouldn’t do it, but that just means I don’t go into DC very often.
“When the President Barack (Hussein) Obama was confronted with the idea that the Pulse massacre could have been stopped by armed patrons, he huffed “the notion that the answer to this tragedy would be to make sure that more people in a nightclub are similarly armed to the killer defies common sense.””
Well consider the source. Under Florida law at the time you were not allowed to carry inside the club even if you had a valid CCW license because alcohol was served. This exclusion included not only the patrons (presumably possibly drinking) but staff as well. Including the night manager, bouncers, bar tenders other security (other than presumably police) who more than likely wouldn’t be drinking on the job. Police arrived and following standard procedure (no. one priority being officer safety) setup outside the club, said “standoff”. While they were standing pat, the shooter was inside and well shooting up the patrons in the place. Armed staff inside the club would obviously have had an incentive to immediately respond the moment the shooting started well before the police arrived.
President Barack (Hussein) Obama has an armed protection detail. It makes a difference when you can have armed guards, doesn’t it?
If we were all angels there would be no need for weapons (against each other)… We aren’t angels.
“President Barack (Hussein) Obama has an armed protection detail. It makes a difference when you can have armed guards, doesn’t it?”
http://www.norcalblogs.com/postscripts/files/2016/01/guns-make-us-less-safe.jpg
men-president-american_president-obama-bodyguards-president_body_guards-gmy130114_low.jpg
https://s3.amazonaws.com/lowres.cartoonstock.com/men-president-american_president-obama-bodyguards-president_body_guards-gmy130114_low.jpg
That didn’t sound quite right so I went back and checked because I remembered thinking the same thing initially but learning differently. An armed security guard (off-duty cop) did engage Mateen and the first police on the scene entered the building and engaged him as well. It was only after he had retreated to the bathroom and holed up with hostages (stopped shooting them) that the standoff began, with SWAT taking the place of the initial officers inside the building. All told, the police responded pretty well, but of course were “minutes away” and someone bent on violence can do a lot of damage in that time.
“Under Florida law at the time you were not allowed to carry inside the club even if you had a valid CCW license because alcohol was served.”
You’re right, of course. In fact, my wife and I attended the WMAL Free Speech Forum event last Saturday, where conservative radio hosts Larry O’Connor, Vince Coglianese, Chris Plante and Mark Levin appeared and discussed current events. As we were driving there, my wife asked – out of nowhere – if I was carrying. It was the first time she ever had. I wasn’t, precisely because Virginia concealed carry laws don’t allow it in places that serve alcohol…and, I never even touch a firearm if I’ve had anything to drink. I was, however, wearing my IWB holster just as a matter of practicing the art of non-printing.
I think the laws should be revised to allow concealed carry in bars or other places serving alcohol, as long as the person carrying refrains from consuming any adult beverages. I mean, I’m able to restrain myself even at home…how tough is it to be a “designated shooter” on a night out?
“I think the laws should be revised to allow concealed carry in bars or other places serving alcohol, as long as the person carrying refrains from consuming any adult beverages.”
Yes. And even if the police did engage the shooter:
“An armed security guard (off-duty cop) did engage Mateen and the first police on the scene entered the building and engaged him as well. It was only after he had retreated to the bathroom and holed up with hostages (stopped shooting them) that the standoff began, with SWAT taking the place of the initial officers inside the building.”
The fact is the unarmed people inside were helpless/defenseless against the shooter totally dependent on the police. The Night shift manager/bartenders/bouncers would likely not have been drinking on the job law or no law and if they had been allowed to carry could have immediately intervened the second he started shooting people.