Most Americans who think Sweden is worth emulating have never set foot in Sweden, and thus have a view of it that strongly differs from reality in a vast many ways. Take Stockholm, for example; the downtown around the palace and waterfront is wonderful, but a look at the rest of the city is eye-opening in a vast many ways.
between 1870 and 1936, Sweden had enjoyed the highest economic growth in the entire industrialized world
Not being in a couple of wars probably helped. Like, you know, the Franco-Prussian War, or WWI.
in the most intense period of “third-way” policies of market socialism, between the 1970s and 1990s, Sweden’s economic performance was exceptionally low
So their economy cratered with the 1970s oil crash. Hardly surprising in a country that imports all its oil. But I am sure the problem was socialism. Sure.
the root of Scandinavian success can largely be found in culture… the “Protestant work ethic…these traditions and values by no means came with the welfare state”
Sorry but if you take Christianity as the basis of your successful culture, or whatever, you should probably take into account that helping your fellow man comes part and parcel with the package.
“for redistribution of wealth to be possible, there must first and foremost be enough wealth to distribute”
No shit.
Ah, yes, the words of Jesus, “Take your weapons and gather all the riches from those that have, and give to those who need, keeping much for yourself as payment.” Yeah, real “Christian” values those tax enforcers have…
Yes. It’s a shame Jesus did not behave in a proper Ayn Rand way and charged money for his healing and bread/wine multiplication services.
Godzilla,
I may be a rare duck, but I’m Christian, fairly libertarian, can’t stand Ayn Rand, believe in helping other people (and try to put my money where my mouth is wherever I can), but don’t like government forced wealth redistribution. Not because I don’t want to see the poor helped, or because I think they don’t matter, or that they deserve their poverty as a just punishment for their laziness, but because I think that using taxes as redistribution is hard to distinguish from theft, and I also think that government welfare all too often is about creating and maintaining dependencies instead of helping people become independent and self-reliant.
Not all who disagree with your means (welfare statism) disagree with your desired ends (alleviation of poverty and human misery).
~Jon
Jesus was a philanthropist, not a socialist.
Sure. He led by example instead of forcing other people to do like he did. But there is more to Christianity than that.
Acts 4:32-35
Now the full number of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one said that any of the things that belonged to him was his own, but they had everything in common. And with great power the apostles were giving their testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great grace was upon them all. There was not a needy person among them, for as many as were owners of lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold and laid it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to each as any had need.
owners of lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold and laid it at the apostles’ feet
So explain where the IRS fits this example?
I’m sure there is a chapter in the gospels where Jesus said, take money from A and give it to B.
And yes, Christianity is responsible for the success of western culture. That whole equality thing is just a fluke. Science has nothing to do with Aristotelianism and Scholasticism.
“Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s”
Jesus did say to go with the local tax scheme. What Jesus doesn’t do is assume Caesar is going to do anything nice with that tax revenue.
I think Godzilla managed to invoke more religion into the discussion than the original author of the article. I saw the Protestant, but I focused a bit more on the work ethic. I suspect a strong work ethic in a population would help socialism work. In the past, if you had poor work ethic, the powers at be would just ship you to a forced labor camp to instill a work ethic until you drop dead.
What I think most miss about the Swedish utopia is that the nation is also fairly homogenous. They don’t welcome in freeloaders to their supposed socialist utopia. This has the advantage of the powers at be not needing to purge unwanted from the society.
“I suspect a strong work ethic in a population would help socialism work.”
Yes, right up until the time those workers are past their prime, and get carted off to the glue factory to pay for the Nomenklatura’s comforts.
What is missing in the left-vs-right hullabaloo is a serious discussion of growth vs prosperity. A 30% growth rate in the economy whose benefits go only to the 1%’ers isn’t helpful but neither is a 43% income tax on a 0% growth which only sucks money away from all but hurts the middle the most. My complaint is no one is reaching for any middle ground anymore. And, personally to me, there is plenty to be had if people would only talk to each other and use a little common sense.
Uhhh, guys. The Protestant Work Ethic has nothing to do with religion. It was a phrase coined to describe the mentality toward work that Scandinavian immigrants possessed, who were mainly protestants. EG, “Those Protestants sure bust their ass from sun up to sun down without taking breaks.”
There is nothing religious about it other than they were separated from other Americans by their culture and religious beliefs. Also, the Protestant Work Ethic predates the introduction of Christianity to the pagan Norse.
helping your fellow man
Is an interesting phrase. So why are the results of the welfare state ignored? BECAUSE IT NEVER WAS ABOUT HELPING THE POOR.
Let’s state it emphatically… the welfare state harms our fellows.
Note John Wayne’s ‘El Dorado’, he gave a girl a stake which she used to create a business. This was how things were done to help the poor before the welfare state.
Minimum wage is not about helping the poor either. Give the poor a stake to start a business and mix in min wage law and what happens?
That stake is no longer enough to start that business. People willing to work for less are not allowed. They can no longer get that job experience that leads them to better jobs.
Lower the overall economy means fewer higher paying jobs as well meaning more people are stuck at min wage.
People promoting min wage are evil f##$$$g bastards that deserve death. Their brains should be used for something useful, like canned dog food. This isn’t even a close call. There is no excuse for this idiotic idea.
Min wage is not meant to be a living wage. It’s a stepping stone to a better job. It demonstrates work ethic. The evil is compounded by those that promote it yet want exceptions. Anyone doing that should lose their own job which I’m sure is already beyond min wage.
This should not even be a debate since there is no non evil argument for minimum wage. I could not be more disgusted that we can’t get beyond this stupid issue.
Scandinavian politics have other aspects that ought to be mentioned too, such as the wonderful fruits of mass immigration plus the welfare state.
For example, Malmo, Sweden’s 3rd largest city, is beset by high crime, poverty, and lately, hand grenade and car bomb attacks.
http://www.hngn.com/articles/100727/20150613/sweden-car-explosions-one-dead-and-several-injured-in-gothenburg-follows-blast-in-malmo.htm
Most Americans who think Sweden is worth emulating have never set foot in Sweden, and thus have a view of it that strongly differs from reality in a vast many ways. Take Stockholm, for example; the downtown around the palace and waterfront is wonderful, but a look at the rest of the city is eye-opening in a vast many ways.
between 1870 and 1936, Sweden had enjoyed the highest economic growth in the entire industrialized world
Not being in a couple of wars probably helped. Like, you know, the Franco-Prussian War, or WWI.
in the most intense period of “third-way” policies of market socialism, between the 1970s and 1990s, Sweden’s economic performance was exceptionally low
So their economy cratered with the 1970s oil crash. Hardly surprising in a country that imports all its oil. But I am sure the problem was socialism. Sure.
the root of Scandinavian success can largely be found in culture… the “Protestant work ethic…these traditions and values by no means came with the welfare state”
Sorry but if you take Christianity as the basis of your successful culture, or whatever, you should probably take into account that helping your fellow man comes part and parcel with the package.
“for redistribution of wealth to be possible, there must first and foremost be enough wealth to distribute”
No shit.
Ah, yes, the words of Jesus, “Take your weapons and gather all the riches from those that have, and give to those who need, keeping much for yourself as payment.” Yeah, real “Christian” values those tax enforcers have…
Yes. It’s a shame Jesus did not behave in a proper Ayn Rand way and charged money for his healing and bread/wine multiplication services.
Godzilla,
I may be a rare duck, but I’m Christian, fairly libertarian, can’t stand Ayn Rand, believe in helping other people (and try to put my money where my mouth is wherever I can), but don’t like government forced wealth redistribution. Not because I don’t want to see the poor helped, or because I think they don’t matter, or that they deserve their poverty as a just punishment for their laziness, but because I think that using taxes as redistribution is hard to distinguish from theft, and I also think that government welfare all too often is about creating and maintaining dependencies instead of helping people become independent and self-reliant.
Not all who disagree with your means (welfare statism) disagree with your desired ends (alleviation of poverty and human misery).
~Jon
Jesus was a philanthropist, not a socialist.
Sure. He led by example instead of forcing other people to do like he did. But there is more to Christianity than that.
Acts 4:32-35
Now the full number of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one said that any of the things that belonged to him was his own, but they had everything in common. And with great power the apostles were giving their testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great grace was upon them all. There was not a needy person among them, for as many as were owners of lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold and laid it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to each as any had need.
owners of lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold and laid it at the apostles’ feet
So explain where the IRS fits this example?
I’m sure there is a chapter in the gospels where Jesus said, take money from A and give it to B.
And yes, Christianity is responsible for the success of western culture. That whole equality thing is just a fluke. Science has nothing to do with Aristotelianism and Scholasticism.
“Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s”
Jesus did say to go with the local tax scheme. What Jesus doesn’t do is assume Caesar is going to do anything nice with that tax revenue.
I think Godzilla managed to invoke more religion into the discussion than the original author of the article. I saw the Protestant, but I focused a bit more on the work ethic. I suspect a strong work ethic in a population would help socialism work. In the past, if you had poor work ethic, the powers at be would just ship you to a forced labor camp to instill a work ethic until you drop dead.
What I think most miss about the Swedish utopia is that the nation is also fairly homogenous. They don’t welcome in freeloaders to their supposed socialist utopia. This has the advantage of the powers at be not needing to purge unwanted from the society.
“I suspect a strong work ethic in a population would help socialism work.”
Yes, right up until the time those workers are past their prime, and get carted off to the glue factory to pay for the Nomenklatura’s comforts.
What is missing in the left-vs-right hullabaloo is a serious discussion of growth vs prosperity. A 30% growth rate in the economy whose benefits go only to the 1%’ers isn’t helpful but neither is a 43% income tax on a 0% growth which only sucks money away from all but hurts the middle the most. My complaint is no one is reaching for any middle ground anymore. And, personally to me, there is plenty to be had if people would only talk to each other and use a little common sense.
Uhhh, guys. The Protestant Work Ethic has nothing to do with religion. It was a phrase coined to describe the mentality toward work that Scandinavian immigrants possessed, who were mainly protestants. EG, “Those Protestants sure bust their ass from sun up to sun down without taking breaks.”
There is nothing religious about it other than they were separated from other Americans by their culture and religious beliefs. Also, the Protestant Work Ethic predates the introduction of Christianity to the pagan Norse.
helping your fellow man
Is an interesting phrase. So why are the results of the welfare state ignored? BECAUSE IT NEVER WAS ABOUT HELPING THE POOR.
Let’s state it emphatically… the welfare state harms our fellows.
Note John Wayne’s ‘El Dorado’, he gave a girl a stake which she used to create a business. This was how things were done to help the poor before the welfare state.
Minimum wage is not about helping the poor either. Give the poor a stake to start a business and mix in min wage law and what happens?
That stake is no longer enough to start that business. People willing to work for less are not allowed. They can no longer get that job experience that leads them to better jobs.
Lower the overall economy means fewer higher paying jobs as well meaning more people are stuck at min wage.
People promoting min wage are evil f##$$$g bastards that deserve death. Their brains should be used for something useful, like canned dog food. This isn’t even a close call. There is no excuse for this idiotic idea.
Min wage is not meant to be a living wage. It’s a stepping stone to a better job. It demonstrates work ethic. The evil is compounded by those that promote it yet want exceptions. Anyone doing that should lose their own job which I’m sure is already beyond min wage.
This should not even be a debate since there is no non evil argument for minimum wage. I could not be more disgusted that we can’t get beyond this stupid issue.