38 thoughts on “The Clash Of Civilizations”

  2. Mr. Cohen warned at the time (2012) that the British decision would create a dangerous precedent, to whit that whenever Jews say that antisemitism is a major component of anti-Zionism, they are arguing in bad faith.

    I see no paradox in not wanting Israel to exist but also not being antisemitic.

    I’ll state here that I personally am not antisemitic or anti-Zionist, I detest the violence that has befallen the people in that part of the world that’s grown since the departure of the British and the end of the British Mandate for Palestine, If and when peace gets to break out, I hope it will involve the existence of the nations wanted by all the people living there.

    “The International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network (IJAN) views Zionism as a racist movement, and Israel as an apartheid state.” (Wiki).

    So yeah, when people make the accusation that antisemitism must be a component of anti-Zionism, I’d agree that that accusation is often made in bad faith.

    1. “I hope it will involve the existence of the nations wanted by all the people living there.”

      That is the israeli position, but some arabic govermnents and organizations do not agree.
      however, the problem in the Middle East is much deeper than a conflict between two or three states. The region is tortured by a horrible social “culture” of oppression and intolerance, on a governmental level tyranny abounds like the medieval bedoune kingdom of Saudi who has the Koran as its konstitution . There is no scientific research going on in any arabic country. They have no real industry, I bet you have never bought anything *manufactured* in an arabic country, they only export food and raw materials.

      Many generations of forced marriages and unloved children might have caused a damage beyond repair for the aggressive violent hateful intolerant people living there. The ambition should be to disarm and contain them.

      1. The region is tortured by a horrible social “culture” of oppression and intolerance,
        Not hard to find that around the globe, but that’s not a reasonable description of many countries in the region.

        There is no scientific research going on in any arabic country.
        Simply rubbish.

        they have no real industry, I bet you have never bought anything *manufactured* in an arabic country, they only export food and raw materials.

        Nonsense, many Arab countries manufacture and export a whole range of goods from electrical goods, heavy machinery, chemicals to textiles, they also have major airlines, and serious tourism.

        Many generations of forced marriages and unloved children might have caused a damage beyond repair for the aggressive violent hateful intolerant people living there. The ambition should be to disarm and contain them.

        Sounds to me like you’re the hateful and intolerant one, you really have no idea of what the big wide world is like.

        1. Andrew, I’m your side, at least with my sympathies, but when you say “simply rubbish”, it is unconvincing. So I googled “Arab Scientific Research” and I remained unconvinced by the results. This link pretty much summed up what I found:
          http://www.ascb.org/ascbpost/index.php/compass-points/item/106-science-in-the-arab-world-a-personal-perspective

          (Short version: There are Arab scientists (of course!) but they work in the USA.)

          On a positive note, I’m sure most readers here heard about the UAE’s plan to send a probe to Mars:
          http://www.theglobeandmail.com/technology/science/uae-plans-unmanned-mars-mission-by-2021-with-new-space-agency/article19629892/

          1. I did recently need an article from the Journal of Applied Crystallography whose authors were from Morocco. I’m not a crystallographer, so I don’t know how unusual that is, so I tried to look it up and found this:
            http://www.iucr.org/news/newsletter/volume-8/number-4/crystallography-in-morocco

            Excerpts:
            “About 500 permanent Moroccan researchers use the techniques of X-ray crystallography, Scanning Electron microscopy (SEM), and Transmission Electron Microscopy (TEM) to characterize materials. They represent 20% of all researchers in the physical and chemical sciences. The majority of these researchers received training in crystallography in foreign laboratories, especially in France. These researchers work in about 50 laboratories in 23 universities, schools of engineering, and institutes of technology.”

            …
            “Research in materials sciences is hampered by outdated equipment, inadequate infrastructure, and the isolation of researchers.”

            …

            “As is true of most developing countries, Morocco did not make scientific research a priority. Research in Morocco survived because of individual researchers and international cooperation (particularly with France). The state has recently become sensitive to the importance of scientific research to economic and social development. Although concrete measures have been taken to promote scientific research, they remain inadequate. This effort would benefit from the support of international organizations. Theoretical research in crystallography offers few outlets and does not allow the laboratories to obtain subsidies to maintain their activities. To develop research related to crystallography it is necessary to have very expensive equipment. Research in this field decreases annually. Because of the high cost of equipment many Moroccan crystallographers have changed fields. The teaching of crystallography is likely to decline. The assistance of the international community of crystallographers is needed if crystallography is to survive in Morocco.”

          2. One of your links there claims that “arabs were once among the frontrunners in science”.

            That is often claimed, but it is wrong. The first few centruries after the arabs had invaded and occupied former high cultures in North Africa and Turkey and Spain and Persia and Greece, the regime was tolerant and non-arab scientists there could continue their good work. But with the generations the oppression and supersticion increased and all scienced ceased. Even during the last 500 years you won’t find much “arabic” science.

            It is a cultural problem, not a racial issue. Those who have the opportunity leave the arab culture to go west or east where they can live much more freely and develop their potential. And the UAE is a great example of how a king can be good and thus cause enormous creation of wealth under freedom. I am however not convinced that this state of affaires will remain for too long. It is probably up to the health of their king and to their war crazed neighbours and perhaps a fraction of their fundamentalist inhabitants.

          3. Well, we should give credit to some Muslim cultures for their contributions in other areas. For example, there are the contributions made to sociology and entertainment fields by the Moors, notably Sir Thomas and his lovely wife Mary Tyler.

          4. There is no scientific research going on in any arabic country. Is such a sweeping claim it’s certain to be rubbish, here’s a list to Arab universities, and while physics wouldn’t be a strong suit for Arabs in research, they’re fairly strong in research in many areas of applied science; computing, medicine, geology, economics (if that’s science, I think it makes the cut).

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Arab_Universities#The_Arab_World

          5. In addition to Sir Thomas and Mary Tyler, MfK might also have mentioned their lovely daughter, Melanie, winner of Season 8 of So You Think You Can Dance. 🙂

          9. Actually, Rand, I think his link makes your point pretty well when you scroll through it. Aramco owns Kaust, but all of the elements of it were built by groups from Atlanta, Seattle, Houston, Paris, Boston, etc. It’s first pres Choon Fong Shih, and its current president is Jean-Lou Chameau from Caltech. Most of its students are Chinese, and most of the rest are from India.

            So the premier research university in the Middle East was built by foreigners, and is run by foreigners to educate mostly foreigners. It also only accepts 209 to 250 students a year.

          10. Our intention is to create an enduring model for advanced education and scientific research. King Abdullah Bin Abdulaziz Al Saud.

            I’m wondering what Competential’s point is, clearly this institution is intended to encourage scientific research in SA, it sounds like people are acknowledging that there is scientific research going on in the Arab world, and that it’s being promoted by Arab goverments.

            Sounds like an echo of the popular but mindless “you’re anti-science” meme everyone wants to throw at each others these days.

        2. Your denials are funny! Are you an arab yourself?

          Please entertain us by giving exampels of science resurce conducted at any university in arab countries! Please give examples of useful industrial goods manufactured there! The few clever arabs have already fled the region to non-arabic countries where they are free to develop their potential.

          Arab culture is an intense oppression against women. That part is not governmental, it is cultural and ubiqutous. The arab society is a society where the powerful clans have all the powers and the rest are slaves without any rights. Their governments don’t even have constitutions, they are remnants of medieval tyrannies. If industrialized countries didn’t extract their oil and paid for it, they’d be much poorer even than any part of Africa south of Sahara. Supersticion, hatred, forced weddings and forced breeding has destroyed the entire human infrastructure of that region. They can at best be disarmed and contained.

        3. I think a good proxy for the vigor of a nation’s research and industrial sectors is the number of patents granted. The linked table comes from the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office and summarizes U.S. patents granted by nation.

          As you can see, the USPTO granted 147,666 patents to Americans last year and 155,296 to citizens of all other nations. Many of the nations on this list have their own patent systems and, particularly in the case of China, the number of patents granted under those systems can be very large. I think the USPTO numbers are most useful, though, because all patents represented were granted after meeting a common standard for worthiness and priority.

          Also, foreigners don’t tend to apply for U.S. patents unless they are intending to do transnational commerce in goods or processes so covered. U.S. patents are the most valuable in the world because of the many reciprocal intellectual property protection treaties the U.S. has with other nations. The U.S. is also the largest market in the world for other countries’ exports. Someone who has a U.S. patent on goods sold in the United States can defend said patent in U.S. courts if their intellectual property is infringed by either some other foreigner or by an American.

          So, with the worthiness and general indicativeness of said benchmark established, how does the Islamic world stack up? Not so well, it turns out.

          I found the names of 26 Muslim-majority countries on the list. Their populations total nearly a billion people. Last year they, collectively, were granted 570 U.S. patents.

          These patents were not very evenly distributed. Saudi Arabia got 239 of them, 42% of the total. Another 30% were split nearly evenly by Turkey and Kuwait with 83 and 86 patents, respectively.

          Population was essentially uncorrelated with patents granted. Indonesia, for example, a nation of 240 million and the most populous Muslim-majority country on Earth, got only 15 patents. So, by way of contrast, did the 81,000 residents of the Isle of Man. Pakistan, a nation of roughly 180 million, did – proportionally – about as well as Indonesia with 12 patents granted. That’s one fewer than tiny Monaco managed to snag in 2013.

          The USPTO table also has a column for all patents granted to citizens of foreign countries in the history of the Office. 570 patents in a year for the entire Islamic world isn’t much, but it represents a pretty sharp increase over historical norms. The total patents granted to all of these countries totals just 2,883. So roughly 20% of patents granted by the U.S. to the Islamic world were granted just last year.

          Another index of intellectual participation – or non-participation – of the Islamic world in the wider world is how many books originally written in other languages are translated into Arabic. I found one source that pegs this at 330 per year. Several other sources note that Spain is said to translate more books into Spanish in a year than have been translated into Arabic in the last millenium, but no numbers are on offer.

          Still, it is evident that intellectual engagement with the rest of the world is very limited to non-existent in the Islamic world. I haven’t tried to find any numbers yet for articles published in peer-reviewed science journals, but I suspect such numbers would correlate pretty well with my patent research and the book translation numbers. The popular conception in the West that the Islamic world – and the Arab world in particular – is an intellectual as well as a geographic desert appears to be well-founded.

          1. So, with the worthiness and general indicativeness of said benchmark established, how does Latin America stack up? Not so well, it turns out.

            I found the names of 19 Latin American countries on the list. Their populations total nearly six hundred million people. Last year they, collectively, were granted 724 U.S. patents.

            These patents were not very evenly distributed. Brazil got 286 of them, 39% of the total. Another 39% were split between Mexico and Argentina with 204 and 80 patents, respectively.
            etc, etc

            Still, it is evident that intellectual engagement with the rest of the world is very limited to non-existent in the Latin American world. I haven’t tried to find any numbers yet for articles published in peer-reviewed science journals, but I suspect such numbers would correlate pretty well with my patent research numbers. The popular conception in the West that the Latin world – and the Latin American world in particular – is an intellectual desert appears to be well-founded.

            (I obviously don’t have as much spare time on my hands as you Dick)

          2. Or I could have done the same thing with Sub Saharan Africa: 900 million people, 195 patents.

            It’s easy to rationalize why this group or that group are inferior, and come up with the evidence to convince yourself, the Fascists were at least as good at it as you.

          3. The case that the Muslim world is a notable laggard in scientific and intellectual pursuits is not refuted simply because there are at least two other parts of the world that are nearly as backward. In any event, given that Sub-Saharan Africa includes some nations with Muslim majorities and many more with sizable Muslim minorities, I would argue that your citation of it is vastly more helpful to my case than to yours.

            I’ve never said that Islam is the only reason a region or a people happen to be backward. Bad governance and endemic corruption are also potent contributors. Both of these are, of course, normative in the Islamic world, but are also normative in Sub-Saharan Africa and in much of Latin America as well. One can argue about the genesis of such norms and why they persist, but their reality and resistance to change is flagrantly apparent.

            As to inferiority of normative individuals in such social orders, that is a separate issue. It is also one that seems largely uncorrelated with the presence or absence of dysfunctional social orders. As opposed to the modern high Leftist priests of multiculturalism, for example, I believe some social orders are pretty clearly superior to others and that this can be demonstrated objectively. As to the average inferiority or superiority of individuals in a particular social order, one often-cited metric, general intelligence, shows that we fortunate citizens of the Anglosphere nations – U.S., Canada, U.K., Australia, New Zealand – are middling smart, with Latins and blacks behind us and most Asians ahead. Leading the parade are the Ashkenazic Jews. And yet much of Asia is still saddled with governments and social orders that are as dysfunctional as the norms of Latin America, Africa or the Islamic world.

            Look elsewhere for fascists and racial chauvinists, Andrew. You won’t find one here. I simply look at the world as it really is and don’t blink or look away from the unpleasant stuff. I also don’t alibi or compose apologetics for it.

    2. You think that violence in the Middle East is a new phenomenon, caused by British withdrawal? So it was a mistake to break up the empire? Or what?

        1. There aren’t any. But that’s hardly the point. The Middle East has a normative level of violence quite unlike that of most of the rest of the world. And it has been thus for decades. Given that the violence has been worse since the breakup of the Ottoman and then British empires, it’s pretty hard to make a convincing case that the main villain is Western Imperialism. The Turks ran the Middle East for centuries. That was Eastern Imperialism. The British ran it for less than 40 years. It’s been roughly 60 years since the Brits cleared out. Needless to say, things in the Middle East haven’t been exactly tiggerty-boo during this interval.

          You are, as usual, asking non sequitur questions designed to imply false moral equivalences and, secondarily, to make excuses for the inexcusable.

          1. The Middle East has a normative level of violence quite unlike that of most of the rest of the world.
            Wow, you do like to pull claims out of the air and not back them up with evidence.

            Present statistics supporting your claim.

          2. You first. Your own assertions in most of your postings are entirely, evidence-free. Once in awhile you trot out something that is irrelevant to your case that you incorrectly imagine to be supporting evidence such as that business about a university in Saudi Arabia that another commenter pointed out was a nearly Arab-free exercise in purchased prestige for the ruling monarchy. Your cited list of universities in Arab/Islamic countries seems likely to be top-heavy with other such Potemkin campuses. Even I don’t have sufficient free time to vet the list just for laughs. When it comes to measurable intellectual output, I and others here have adequately demonstrated that the Islamic world barely registers as background noise.

            As to your specific request for evidence of the persistently higher incidence of violence in the Islamic world, and the Arab Middle East in particular, I could start by citing the multifarious wars and intifadas between various Arab groups and Israel – all of them started by Arabs.

            Compared to the internecine butchery of Muslim-on-Muslim violence, of course, even the worst of these dustups with Israel is a minor sideshow. There was the Iran-Iraq war of the ’80’s, the Lebanese civil war and Syrian incursion of the 70’s, through the 2000’s, the Islamist insurgency in Algeria in the 80’s and 90’s, the near quarter-century of tribal and militia violence, not to mention the rampant piracy, emanating from the failed state of Somalia, the current mess in Libya, which is looking a lot like Somalia 2.0 in miniature, the Syrian civil war, the recent attempt, thus far successful, by Islamist death squads to found a new Caliphate in Iraq and Syria.

            Oh, I almost forgot Darfur. Surely you remember Darfur? Very big with the usual crowd of ostentatious Leftist hand-wringing celebrities not so long ago.

            Need I really go on?

            In almost every one of these places the butcher’s bill was, or is, upwards of 100,000 dead. In the specific case of the Iran-Iraq War it was at least ten times that. Perhaps even twenty times. The Syrian civil war, though of recent provenance, is already up to nearly 200,000 with no signs of abatement at all evident. The few relatively recent such conflicts that have not yet reached the 100,000 bodies level would seem merely to require a bit more time to do so. The one thing that seems uniformly true of Islamic butchers is they are content to slog if they can’t sprint.

            Face facts, Andrew. There is something intrinsically sick, broken and bloodthirsty about Islamic culture in general and Arabic culture in particular. Given a choice between living peaceful, productive lives and indulging their seemingly genetic urge to indulge in mindless slaughter, the adherents of Islam can nearly all be reliably counted upon to chose mindless slaughter every time. The evidence is everywhere you care to look. But then, of course, you don’t care to look.

          3. http://www.war-memorial.net/wars_all.asp?q=3

            No doubt you’ve other sources that support the death tolls you claim.

            Interestingly wars started by Muslims during the last century have been far less costly in lives than wars statred by people of other faiths.

            Like other fanatics, you’re obsessed with only one side of the equation, never comparing the things your bigotry drives you to rage over with fair comparisons.

            I haven’t yet seen evidence that the research university is nearly Arab-free, only, as with such facalties world wide, it has a very cosmopolitan role.

          4. The numbers at the cited link seem pretty consistently low. They also seem unreasonably precise. No figures are given as ranges, for instance. I’m afraid the casualty totals for most wars are quite fuzzy and hardly subject to precision audits by Price Waterhouse.

            Your source, for instance, says WW2 resulted in 50 million deaths. Wikipedia says 60 to 85 million. In the case of one of the conflicts I cited in my previous response to you – the Algerian-Islamist conflict of the 90’s and early 2000’s – your source says fewer than 20,000 dead. Wikipedia says 44,000 to 150,000. The Iran-Iraq War is a bit ambiguous. Your source says 644,000. Wikipedia says something similar, but this is only for the fighting centered on the Iran-Iraq border region. There was also a second front in Iraq’s north against the PKK and other Kurdish militias that sided with Iran. Wikipedia puts the toll on the Kurdish front alone at over 180,000.

            There are also some numbers that are low owing to the conflicts in question still being ongoing as, for instance, the Syrian civil war. Your source says about 20,000 dead, but the latest figures cited anywhere on the page are for 2011. The figure 170,000 has been used a lot in recent weeks in various mainstream media outlets for the approximate current death toll.

            Your source also seems to be inconsistent in its treatment of pogroms, massacres, genocides and deliberate mass killings of civilians in general that are associated with many wars. There is a number for the Rwandan Civil War – more usually known in the West as the Rwandan Genocide. The number even seems to accord pretty well with what I’ve read elsewhere.

            Your source also has numbers for the Cambodian civil war that ended in 1975 with the victory of the Khmer Rouge, a second number for the Vietnamese-Cambodian war of 1978-79 and a third number for the continuation of that war between the Vietnamese-installed new government of Cambodia and the deposed Khmer Rouge that continued starting in 1979. Unmentioned anywhere, though are the 1.7 – 2.5 million civilian “Killing Fields” deaths the Khmer Rouge regime inflicted on its own citizens from 1975 thru 1978.

            Why are slaughtered Tutsis worthy of enumeration, but not slaughtered Cambodians? Who knows. Perhaps the low-ball number for World War 2 is a result of omitting the Holocaust? There’s no way to tell as there is no explanation on the page or anywhere else on the site as to how the figures were arrived at.

            Compounding the inconsistency is that there is an entry for the Chinese Cultural Revolution – which I guess you could say was a sort of hybrid civil war and party purge – but there is no entry for the earlier Great Leap Forward to which most sources attribute far more deaths than the Cultural Revolution. Why the one and not the other? Again, who knows?

            I did find at least one thing on your cited site that was useful, however. That was the line for the Eritrea-Ethiopia war in the late 90’s. Your source attributes just short of 100,000 deaths to that little dust-up – meaning that there were almost certainly quite a few more than that. That’s another Muslim-initiated conflict with a six-figure butcher’s bill.

          5. The “pretty consistently low” aren’t really relevant to my point, which is that just about everyone else on the planet has been as prone to killing lots of people in wars as Muslims.

          7. Your point goes unmade. The first half of the twentieth century was dominated by wars associated with the tail end of the era of European imperialism. Muslims were certainly ideologically inclined to jihad during this time – the Muslim Brotherhood was founded in the 1920’s – but they lacked both the numbers and money to cause much actual trouble.

            Post-WW2, with access to both oil revenue and modern medicine, Muslims increasingly had both the numbers and money to begin challenging imperial Communism as a source of war and strife in the world. Since the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, Islamist aggressions have been clearly pre-eminent, numerically.

            Nice try attempting to submerge recent Muslim aggressions in an irrelevant solvent of much older conflicts. The fact is, most of the rest of the world has gotten a lot more tranquil since international Communism ceased being a major engine of conflict. The Muslim world has been singular in largely bucking this trend.

    3. What they said: “that whenever Jews say that antisemitism is a major component of anti-Zionism”
      What you said: “when people make the accusation that antisemitism must be a component of anti-Zionism,”

      Do you see that those two are not the same? What they actually said can allow some anti-Zionists who are not antisemites. Just that antisemitism is a major building block of the forces that are anti-Zionist.

      By no means everyone who wanted America to lose in Vietnam wanted Communism to take over the world, nor wanted to kill millions of people in Vietnam and Cambodia after the takeover. They were, however, tools and useful idiots of the ones who did.

      1. What they actually said can allow some anti-Zionists who are not antisemites.

        True, but pointing out that it’s frequently claimed that if you’re anti-Zionist you must also be antisemitic isn’t building a straw man.

    4. I’m curious why you don’t want Israel to exist. Many people who think that believe that the Jews stole the land, which is untrue. Much was purchased from the Ottoman Empire in the 19th and 20th centuries.

      Also, the number of Arabs (not Palestinians, because that word was revived from the Roman Era in the 20th Century) that left Israel was less than the number of Jews kicked out of Arab countries after the founding of Israel.

      1. I’m curious why you don’t want Israel to exist.

        Well you can’t be addressing that to me, as I’m sure you can read.

          1. Andrew: “I’ll state here that I personally am not antisemitic or anti-Zionist, I detest the violence that has befallen the people in that part of the world that’s grown since the departure of the British and the end of the British Mandate for Palestine, If and when peace gets to break out, I hope it will involve the existence of the nations wanted by all the people living there.”

            Jon: “Your points are so convoluted it’s hard to know what you’re trying to say.”

            My mistake, you evidently are limited in your reading of English.

  3. The conflicts in the ME do include Israel’s existence. What the anti-zionists keep missing is that this conflict is simply a bell-weather for the larger attempts at reviving the imperial Caliphate in all its 8th century gory glory. The “front-line” opponents of Israel today are Hamas and Hezbollah. Hamas is Salafist, and Hezbollah is Khomeinist, religiously. Both are tools of Iran, financially and politically.

    Since the families, clans, and tribes that today call themselves “palestinian” have spent the last 100 years allying themselves with the worst of each wave of reaction against industrial society around the world, I have every reason to support Israel in its fight with them. First, they were loyal supporters of the worst of the German/Austrian/Turkish allies during WW1, the Ottoman Empire. Then, they were allies with the Nazis from before 1936 to 1945. Then, from 1949 to 1991, they were getting support from the “socialist camp”‘s NKVD/KGB and its allies like Nasser, and doing their dirty work in the ME.

    Meanwhile, by 1928 the Muslim Brotherhood had begun its organizing to restore the imperial Caliphate (note, the Caliphate was a Muslim copy of the Roman Empire of Constantinople, with all its pretensions to universalism). The MB preceded the “palestinians” in their alliance with the Nazis. By 1991 MB’s offshoot, Hamas, had begun attracting palestinian support, and before that were already being funded by the Khomeinists. Thus, they are now tied into both sides of the Caliphate Revival that is still shooting at the industrial world, from Mauretania to Manila to Manhattan.

    The “palestinians” are in fact the leading edge of propaganda for the Caliphate Revival’s reaction against industrial society around the world just now, and I have no sympathy for them in their self-inflicted conflict with Israel. A banker’s attitude towards borrowers is appropriate here. If a group for 10 years shows a spendthrift attitude towards money loaned to it, finds it can borrow no more, and becomes thrifty, then bankers will often wait another 10 years to see if that thrifty attitude is now “real”, and permanent, before lending again. IMHO, if the “palestinians” want peace, then let them spend the next 100 years demonstrating they want peace as much as they have wanted to slaughter Jews and assault industrial society for the last 100 years. Then, we will look at the situation again.

  4. …a campaign to eradicate Christianity [anything] from the country.

    Anything a country does within it’s borders may affect it’s relationship with other nations. This is how it should be dealt with.

    Russia is firing weapons into Ukraine in support of non uniformed anti Ukraine troops. It is to our shame that we are not giving real support to the Ukraine to defend their country. We should also start now to give support to those next in turn like Poland and some others. Putin is a murderous bully and to do nothing is a disgrace. He’s in a proxy war because he doesn’t want to be called out. We don’t have to call him out. We just need to stand up to him. Ronald Reagan knew how to call him out.

    We let Saddam off the hook and had to go back. Israel should deal with Gaza once and for all time. Take it over and execute all enemy combatants. Ignore what anyone else says, just do it. The fact of hiding behind civilians makes it terrorism and just makes it more important not to take halfway measures or stop before their work is done. This is how you protect those civilians.

Comments are closed.