To understand the problem you need to understand that there is a “Right-bank Ukraine” and a “Left-bank Ukraine”. There are a lot of “misinformed” people who have no clue about the historical conflicts in Eastern Europe.
The Left-bank was the generally Cossack area mostly under the control of the Tsar since the mid 1600’s Khmelnytsky Uprising. It is where the greater percentage of Russian primary language speakers reside. The economy there is more industrial and geared towards the Russian market.
The Right-bank was the area controlled by the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth until the mid-to-late 1700’s Partitions of Poland. After Polish-Soviet War of 1919-1920 the western portions of the Right-bank were actually parts of Poland. Yalta “reunited” Right-bank Ukraine after 1945. Since the fall of the Soviet Union the Visegrád Group plus Lithuania, Latvia and Sweden have been working with the Right-bank Ukraine from an economic perspective. Most of Right-bank trade is with the EU and the West, it is more agricultural with less heavy industry. Almost all in Right-bank Ukraine are native Ukrainian speakers.
Ukraine is currently a kleptocracy. The Donetsk gang, and their Party of Regions and Communist party lackeys, will do anything to stay in power including hiring thugs (tituskis) to beat, maim and kill people. There are a broad spectrum of elements on Maidan, from anarchists to classic liberals to professionals to people sick of all the government corruption.
So please read the sources, the US “mainstream” media and most blogs (HotAir comments have just been stupid uninformed people) don’t have a clue of what is going on there and who are involved. It’s not a bunch of “nazi thugs”. Maidan wants the president to resign and call for early presidential elections, they want early parliamentary elections and a return to the Constitution of 2004 – before the current president usurped powers.
I expect there will be more bloodshed. I expect the western provinces (Lviv, etc.) will not stand for it and there will be an escalation.
You have to believe in Freedom for everyone, not just your causes.
You are very silent when people protest the IMF or WorldBank or Iraq war.
You can’t cheer for Police Brutality and then wonder why we don’t live in a free society.
No one is “cheering for Police Brutality,” you moron.
You have no idea what real repression is ….
Are the police shooting into the crowd with live ammo?
Did the police and administration hire thugs to go into the crown with knives and guns to maim/wound/kill?
Did the the police strip the protesters naked in below freezing weather and put a knife up their rectum?
Did the police go to the hospital and drag the injured out of the beds and off to parts unknown?
Did some of the missing from the hospital show up after their ear was cut off, beaten brutally and left for dead in a subzero night in the snow?
I though not …
I swear this idiot is sounding more and more like that FAN oF MoRe Discourse nutcase over at Judy Curry’s. Sombody needs to locate its misplaced pacifier.
DN-Guy, where did you go to college and in what study did you earn a degree?
“You are very silent when people protest the IMF or WorldBank or Iraq war.”
Protesting in and of itself is not a virtue nor should we reflexively come down on the side of protesters.
Democrats didn’t view a million people turning out on the national mall to protest Obamacare as a valid protest. Obama sent the unions out to fight with them, literally. We saw this same violence again in WI.
People protesting against the IMF, World Bank, and Iraq War tend to support a Chavez, Castro, or Che. They protest for socialism, communism, anarchy or whatever they like to call their totalitarian utopian fantasy. They use violence as a protest tactic, like OWS. The goal is to goad police into responding, to raise the level of violence until the police are forced to respond, for PR purposes.
The values of Democrat protesters in America are more likely to align with the Ukrainian government or Maduro.
And yet Democrats are allowed to freely protest, often without permits and other hoops that non-Democrat groups must jump through. Rule of law does not apply to Democrat protests because of “free speech” but then look at what Democrats wanted to do to the Tea Party. Look at what they did do to Tea Party.
I don’t know how an Obama supporter can be against what is going on in Ukraine but then turn a blind eye to the actions of their own political leaders and partisan government workers in their own country.
The poor bastards! A choice between the Putin dictatorship and the EU dictatorship.
Mike Borgelt, I live in the “EU dictatorship”. I have a comfortable, if low-income life, my political representatives are friendly and approachable, and I have never seen anything remotely like the chaos in the streets shown on these recent pictures from Ukraine.
Stephen
Oxford, UK
Heh. Yeah neither choice is good. So far they have tried to carve their own path but they are always being pressured from both sides. Russia is not interested in having a potentially hostile state in its borders. While Ukraine is a bit too large for the EU to absorb easily – especially considering the current economic crisis. I think in the long run Ukraine joining the EU would be a good idea. However current EU leadership is just plain dumb so they are bound to botch it up somehow. Just like we botched up when Turkey wanted to join.
There should be less opposition to Ukraine joining however. The major opponents of Turkey joining were probably the Germans but they have the opposite opinion regarding Ukraine. They are the ones who wanted Poland to join quickly last time. The best way to get Ukraine out of the grasp of the Russian orbit would be to reduce their reliance on natural gas. Their original plan was to use nuclear power for this but…. Chernobyl.
The EU is a cargo-cult version of the USA. It is already an enormous failure. Ukraine is better off staying away from both Russia and the EU except for bilateral free trade agreements.
Ukraine is better off staying away from both Russia and the EU except for bilateral free trade agreements.
It is not that easy. It is basically where they are now but without the free-trade agreements.
An alternative would be for Ukraine to be in the EEA but not the EU, nor the Euro. Rule of law needs to be re-established in Ukraine.
The situation is who is the higher bidder for Ukraine. Putin has but 15B on the table, can the West come up with a better package. Shipping US LNG to Ukraine & Eastern Europe would remove the stranglehold Russia has on Ukraine.
The real tragedy is that the people of Ukraine don’t have the understanding of how to undertake a successful revolution (violent or otherwise) and the outside world (especially the US) is too chicken shit to show them how or to help. Non-violence only works when you can make use of the good will of others to slowly change their opinion. But it’s rare for it to work alone and it’s even rarer for it to work against despots.
Astronist. I get it. You are a serf, happy in your status. A kept pet of the EU government with no great ambition. Too stupid to even realise that your political representatives are cynical crooks who have good acting skills. They must laugh at you and your kind behind closed doors.
I tend to view almost all politicians as cynical crooks with good acting skills.
Mike, that was a little uncalled for… So would you rather have anarchy? Go read your history books.
For a 1000+ years the European continent has been at each others throats in a near-constant state of warfare. The largest period of time in history that there has not been large scale warfare in Europe has been the period of time from 1946 to 2014 (e.g. the present day). That has been fostered first by (a) the near total devastation in WWII, (b) the US Military being the guarantors of the peace in Western Europe from 1946-1991, and (c) the Marshal Plan, EC, EEA and yes even the EU.
I am very happy the US troops haven’t had to be called in for a THIRD time to settle a war in Europe.
It used to be unquestionable whether or not we would aide Europe in an other war. Now, it is very much in doubt. Our allies around the world have been shown that our foreign policy can be a fickle as the person who serves as President.
I’m sure you can have a nice life in the EU. Just not a free one.
A stifling welfare state where nothing is permitted unless the bureaucracy has written rules to cover it. Look at the poor bastards with the Volocopter. Only been flown indoors under radio control as EASA has not yet finished writing certification rules for those type of flying machines. In the US it would just get an Experimental R&D certificate and they would go fly.
Unfortunately the EU DIRECTIVES and this bureaucratic way of thinking gets effectively exported to the rest of the world. Heard about lead free solder?
I couldn’t care less if the whole continent became a radioactive wasteland tomorrow. I consider it that much of a threat to human freedom.
But then you have Copenhagen Suborbitals ….
Volocopter could charter a barge/tug and test in the Baltic.
To understand the problem you need to understand that there is a “Right-bank Ukraine” and a “Left-bank Ukraine”. There are a lot of “misinformed” people who have no clue about the historical conflicts in Eastern Europe.
The Left-bank was the generally Cossack area mostly under the control of the Tsar since the mid 1600’s Khmelnytsky Uprising. It is where the greater percentage of Russian primary language speakers reside. The economy there is more industrial and geared towards the Russian market.
The Right-bank was the area controlled by the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth until the mid-to-late 1700’s Partitions of Poland. After Polish-Soviet War of 1919-1920 the western portions of the Right-bank were actually parts of Poland. Yalta “reunited” Right-bank Ukraine after 1945. Since the fall of the Soviet Union the Visegrád Group plus Lithuania, Latvia and Sweden have been working with the Right-bank Ukraine from an economic perspective. Most of Right-bank trade is with the EU and the West, it is more agricultural with less heavy industry. Almost all in Right-bank Ukraine are native Ukrainian speakers.
Ukraine is currently a kleptocracy. The Donetsk gang, and their Party of Regions and Communist party lackeys, will do anything to stay in power including hiring thugs (tituskis) to beat, maim and kill people. There are a broad spectrum of elements on Maidan, from anarchists to classic liberals to professionals to people sick of all the government corruption.
So please read the sources, the US “mainstream” media and most blogs (HotAir comments have just been stupid uninformed people) don’t have a clue of what is going on there and who are involved. It’s not a bunch of “nazi thugs”. Maidan wants the president to resign and call for early presidential elections, they want early parliamentary elections and a return to the Constitution of 2004 – before the current president usurped powers.
I expect there will be more bloodshed. I expect the western provinces (Lviv, etc.) will not stand for it and there will be an escalation.
You have to believe in Freedom for everyone, not just your causes.
You are very silent when people protest the IMF or WorldBank or Iraq war.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jarYnrHa4TA
http://www.rense.com/general37/attck.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGeTmy8CD40
You can’t cheer for Police Brutality and then wonder why we don’t live in a free society.
No one is “cheering for Police Brutality,” you moron.
You have no idea what real repression is ….
Are the police shooting into the crowd with live ammo?
Did the police and administration hire thugs to go into the crown with knives and guns to maim/wound/kill?
Did the the police strip the protesters naked in below freezing weather and put a knife up their rectum?
Did the police go to the hospital and drag the injured out of the beds and off to parts unknown?
Did some of the missing from the hospital show up after their ear was cut off, beaten brutally and left for dead in a subzero night in the snow?
I though not …
I swear this idiot is sounding more and more like that FAN oF MoRe Discourse nutcase over at Judy Curry’s. Sombody needs to locate its misplaced pacifier.
DN-Guy, where did you go to college and in what study did you earn a degree?
“You are very silent when people protest the IMF or WorldBank or Iraq war.”
Protesting in and of itself is not a virtue nor should we reflexively come down on the side of protesters.
Democrats didn’t view a million people turning out on the national mall to protest Obamacare as a valid protest. Obama sent the unions out to fight with them, literally. We saw this same violence again in WI.
People protesting against the IMF, World Bank, and Iraq War tend to support a Chavez, Castro, or Che. They protest for socialism, communism, anarchy or whatever they like to call their totalitarian utopian fantasy. They use violence as a protest tactic, like OWS. The goal is to goad police into responding, to raise the level of violence until the police are forced to respond, for PR purposes.
The values of Democrat protesters in America are more likely to align with the Ukrainian government or Maduro.
And yet Democrats are allowed to freely protest, often without permits and other hoops that non-Democrat groups must jump through. Rule of law does not apply to Democrat protests because of “free speech” but then look at what Democrats wanted to do to the Tea Party. Look at what they did do to Tea Party.
I don’t know how an Obama supporter can be against what is going on in Ukraine but then turn a blind eye to the actions of their own political leaders and partisan government workers in their own country.
The poor bastards! A choice between the Putin dictatorship and the EU dictatorship.
Mike Borgelt, I live in the “EU dictatorship”. I have a comfortable, if low-income life, my political representatives are friendly and approachable, and I have never seen anything remotely like the chaos in the streets shown on these recent pictures from Ukraine.
Stephen
Oxford, UK
Heh. Yeah neither choice is good. So far they have tried to carve their own path but they are always being pressured from both sides. Russia is not interested in having a potentially hostile state in its borders. While Ukraine is a bit too large for the EU to absorb easily – especially considering the current economic crisis. I think in the long run Ukraine joining the EU would be a good idea. However current EU leadership is just plain dumb so they are bound to botch it up somehow. Just like we botched up when Turkey wanted to join.
There should be less opposition to Ukraine joining however. The major opponents of Turkey joining were probably the Germans but they have the opposite opinion regarding Ukraine. They are the ones who wanted Poland to join quickly last time. The best way to get Ukraine out of the grasp of the Russian orbit would be to reduce their reliance on natural gas. Their original plan was to use nuclear power for this but…. Chernobyl.
The EU is a cargo-cult version of the USA. It is already an enormous failure. Ukraine is better off staying away from both Russia and the EU except for bilateral free trade agreements.
Ukraine is better off staying away from both Russia and the EU except for bilateral free trade agreements.
It is not that easy. It is basically where they are now but without the free-trade agreements.
An alternative would be for Ukraine to be in the EEA but not the EU, nor the Euro. Rule of law needs to be re-established in Ukraine.
The situation is who is the higher bidder for Ukraine. Putin has but 15B on the table, can the West come up with a better package. Shipping US LNG to Ukraine & Eastern Europe would remove the stranglehold Russia has on Ukraine.
The real tragedy is that the people of Ukraine don’t have the understanding of how to undertake a successful revolution (violent or otherwise) and the outside world (especially the US) is too chicken shit to show them how or to help. Non-violence only works when you can make use of the good will of others to slowly change their opinion. But it’s rare for it to work alone and it’s even rarer for it to work against despots.
Astronist. I get it. You are a serf, happy in your status. A kept pet of the EU government with no great ambition. Too stupid to even realise that your political representatives are cynical crooks who have good acting skills. They must laugh at you and your kind behind closed doors.
I tend to view almost all politicians as cynical crooks with good acting skills.
Mike, that was a little uncalled for… So would you rather have anarchy? Go read your history books.
For a 1000+ years the European continent has been at each others throats in a near-constant state of warfare. The largest period of time in history that there has not been large scale warfare in Europe has been the period of time from 1946 to 2014 (e.g. the present day). That has been fostered first by (a) the near total devastation in WWII, (b) the US Military being the guarantors of the peace in Western Europe from 1946-1991, and (c) the Marshal Plan, EC, EEA and yes even the EU.
I am very happy the US troops haven’t had to be called in for a THIRD time to settle a war in Europe.
It used to be unquestionable whether or not we would aide Europe in an other war. Now, it is very much in doubt. Our allies around the world have been shown that our foreign policy can be a fickle as the person who serves as President.
I’m sure you can have a nice life in the EU. Just not a free one.
A stifling welfare state where nothing is permitted unless the bureaucracy has written rules to cover it. Look at the poor bastards with the Volocopter. Only been flown indoors under radio control as EASA has not yet finished writing certification rules for those type of flying machines. In the US it would just get an Experimental R&D certificate and they would go fly.
Unfortunately the EU DIRECTIVES and this bureaucratic way of thinking gets effectively exported to the rest of the world. Heard about lead free solder?
I couldn’t care less if the whole continent became a radioactive wasteland tomorrow. I consider it that much of a threat to human freedom.
But then you have Copenhagen Suborbitals ….
Volocopter could charter a barge/tug and test in the Baltic.
Or they could pack up and move operations