…go through the stages of grief.
Somehow, being leftists, I don’t think they’ll ever get to acceptance. Bargaining’s as far as they’ll go, and then only to buy time until they can come up with a new strategy.
[Update a couple minutes later]
The disastrous roll out could spell doom. It certainly deserves it. And the Democrats deserve the accruing political fallout.
“Somehow, being leftists, I don’t think they’ll ever get to acceptance. Bargaining’s as far as they’ll go, and then only to buy time until they can come up with a new strategy.”
Indeed. The Hive is resilient, and never rests. In that crowd, the will to power is at last as strong as the need for food, or the sex drive. If not stronger.
A little help? One of the craziest things my liberal friends say is that Obamacare was debated and vetted before being passed. The article comports with my recollection that it was ramrodded through with nearly zero consideration of opposing voices. Is there a link that lays out the history of the Act’s passage, noting especially the disdain for bipartisan concerns? Thank you!
Here’s a history of the Senate Finance Committee’s work on health care reform (the Obamacare law came out of that committee) over the three years leading up to the passage of the Affordable Care Act.
noting especially the disdain for bipartisan concerns?
Sorry, if you actually look at the record you’ll see 31 meetings of a bipartisan group of Senators that worked on the bill, and numerous mentions of Republican involvement.
That’s funny because Obama’s top men in the ’08 campaign said that Obamacare was generated out of a throw away line at a campaign event. Gibbs would never lie.
“Sorry, if you actually look at the record you’ll see 31 meetings of a bipartisan group of Senators”
Hmm and we all know because there was a meeting that provides a fig leaf of bi-partisanship regardless of what actually happened in those meetings. Oh and how did a tax bill start in the Senate?
regardless of what actually happened in those meetings
Nobody goes to 31 straight meetings unless they think their input is being heard.
Oh and how did a tax bill start in the Senate?
Standard procedure is to take an unrelated bill that passed the House and amend it.
Yes, that is, sadly, a standard and unconstitutional procedure, in violation of both the spirit and letter of the intentions of the Founders.
I bet if we look further back than three years we’ll see a lot more health related activity in that committee which we can spuriously claim led to Obamacare. All I can say is that it’s a remarkably shoddy bill for something that supposedly has been cooking for years.
Red Jim tries to polish the turd. LOL
The Nancy Pelosi quote should work well, “We have to pass the bill before we know what’s in it.”
Hard to say a bill was vetted and debated when no one even read it.
when no one even read it
Of course people read it. If you look at the context of her remarks, Pelosi’s point was that the debate over the bill was obscuring its actual content. And she was right. The debate was (and to an unfortunate degree still is) about things that aren’t in the bill: death panels, IRS access to health records, an exemption for Congressional staff, a ban on catastrophic plans and high-deductible HSA plans, etc. Pelosi was expressing an admirable, if perhaps naive belief that once the law was passed the debate would be based in reality, rather than fantasy.
IPAB is a death panel. Congressional staff are exempt. Catastrophic/high-deductible plans ARE banned by the law (sorry, the neat excuse of them not meeting the requirements to be sold on the exchange is a de facto ban). That last fact led to a very fun DailyKos thread that I’m sure you could find if you cared or had any intellectual honesty.
IPAB is a death panel.
IPAB makes recommendations on Medicare spending, and its work “shall not include any recommendation to ration health care, raise revenues or Medicare beneficiary premiums under section 1818, 1818A, or 1839, increase Medicare beneficiary cost sharing (including deductibles, coinsurance, and co-payments), or otherwise restrict benefits or modify eligibility criteria.” IPAB is not a death panel.
Congressional staff are exempt
No, they continue to get employer-subsidized health benefits, just like tens of millions of other people. See The Obamacare Non-Exemption in the National Review.
Catastrophic/high-deductible plans ARE banned by the law
Catastrophic and high-deductible plans are available on the exchanges, you can go look for yourself.
Which all goes to prove Pelosi’s point — the debate over Obamacare has been riddled with falsehoods.
And you miss the context of the points you make.
Death panels – A somewhat pithy way of saying that the IPAB will be a government body determining how payments are made. Even if it is only recommendations, if what they say happens in Medicare, Medicare influences what insurance companies do. If Medicare makes a cost-cutting move, the rest of the insurance companies tend to do the same thing. It is an example of a monopsony, where one larger buyer yanks around the rest of the sellers and distorts how the market would otherwise function if left to its own devices (yes, of course, within criminal law bounds).
IRS access to health records – How will the enforcers of this know how to enforce if they don’t have access to information to enforce it?
Exemption for Congressional staff – If it is so great, then the government staff should have to live with it.
Bans on high-deductible plans – The point here is that the law does something like make the highest-cost plan cost maximum three times the lowest-cost plan. I assume this was an attempt to lower costs for older people by trying to lower the cost of the high end to three times the lower end. Unfortunately, again Democrats don’t understand anything. The other way happened. The lowest cost plans rose in price to 1/3 of the highest cost plan, and the highest cost plans stayed the same.
This is why young people are now getting screwed with higher premiums. Of course, the answer for the left is then: YAY SUBSIDIES!!! Oh great, more picking from one pocket to put in another pocket. So now I pay more because I am not old for no other reason than government mandates, no actual reasons, and now I am paying even more again to pay for those who can’t pay for the new higher premiums which were a result of the law in the first place. I get hit up twice now. Thanks Democrats.
At what point does the left think that the money I earn is mine to keep for myself? Is there no end to their demands for more of my money to transfer to somebody else who has not put in any time at employment anywhere to earn it? What incentive do I now have to produce if I am not the one personally benefiting from that increased production? What about my right to the fruits of my own labor?
These are the questions the left never answers, and unfortunately the Republicans never ask.
Death panels – A somewhat pithy way of saying that the IPAB will be a government body determining how payments are made
Currently Congress determines Medicare payment policies, so by that logic Congress is a death panel. The term has lost all meaning.
IRS access to health records – How will the enforcers of this know how to enforce if they don’t have access to information to enforce it?
Enforcement does not require or involve health information.
Exemption for Congressional staff – If it is so great, then the government staff should have to live with it.
They do — the “exemption” is a myth (see the link above).
Oh great, more picking from one pocket to put in another pocket.
Obamacare does transfer wealth to the poor and near-poor. If you think it’s wrong to take money from people who have more, and use it to make health care affordable for people who have less, then by all means oppose Obamacare on that basis. There’s no need to make up falsehoods like the ones you repeat above.
The middle class is now considered poor? Wow, things really have changed under Obama.
That’s not how IPAB works. Basically, IPAB makes recommendations to Congress and unless Congress rejects then, they are implemented by law.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Payment_Advisory_Board
“The new system grants IPAB the authority to make changes to the Medicare program with the Congress being given the power to overrule the agency’s decisions through supermajority vote.”
and later
“Every year on September 1, IPAB must submit a draft proposal to the Secretary of Health and Human Services. … If Congress fails to adopt a substitute provision by August 15, HHS must implement the proposal as originally submitted to Congress.”
Having the government determine payments like this results in de facto rationing of everyone with no recourse for the individual regardless of what the law says against it. All that means is that IPAB won’t use the word “ration” in their documents. It doesn’t mean that they won’t engage in it or engage in activities that effectively are the same thing by other means.
You’re right I’m against taking money from the middle class by force to give to the poor. Or even worse take from the slightly less poor to give to the slightly more poor. That just makes middle class people more poor then they otherwise would be, and makes it impossible for the near-poor to get out of that situation.
Why should my family’s well being be sacrificed for another family, when I was the one who worked for that well being? What made them so important that I owe them just for their base existence? The same goes the other way. No one owes me just for my base existence.
Having the government determine payments like this results in de facto rationing of everyone
Medicare is a government program. The government has determined Medicare payments since Medicare was created in 1965. If the government setting payment levels is what you object to, your beef is with Medicare, not Obamacare.
My “beef” is with the entire concept of the left’s desire to level incomes. There is almost nothing that could be more evil than to say that someone has done too well in life, and so now you are going to be punished for it.
That’s what all of this crap is. “You make too much, and that is a crime against the leftist state, so now you must be fined for that or thrown in jail or killed.” It’s Soviet Union/North Korea stuff.
I don’t watch Hannity as I don’t like talking head shows of any type, but I ran across this clip that shows everything that is wrong with the left’s agenda. Listen to the key quote from the Democrat guy yourself at 3:23 (skip the rest as it devolves into a bunch of arguing); “If you’re young, you will have to pay a little bit more”.
Excuse me, why do the young now owe more? Why does the left want to take more and more from the young, who don’t have any savings built up yet to begin with, and have the lowest salaries anyways because they are just starting out or don’t have any business-relevant degrees to begin with?
How can you even justify this kind of evil agenda Jim?
Forgot the link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgFe1jEpIII
Only a moron like Baghdad Jim would even try to argue that a particularly moronic statement by the nigh-uniquely moronic Nancy Pelosi was anything but moronic.
You want to provide nuance to Pelosi but you think Palin was speaking of something literally called a death panel in the legislation. Why can’t Palin have nuance? Why do you constantly refuse people the same privilages that Democrats have?
I agree the debate about Obamacare has been riddled with falsehoods. You can keep your healthplan. You can keep your doctor. Premiums will drop by $2500. There has been zero effect on employement. I could go on but you get the point.
but you think Palin was speaking of something literally called a death panel in the legislation
I didn’t mention Palin, or write anything like that. But since you bring it up, here’s what Palin wrote:
The panel she describes, reviewing individual medical cases and making judgements based on “level of productivity in society”, is entirely a product of her imagination. That’s the sort of blatant falsehood that has played such a large role in this debate.
You can keep your healthplan
I can keep mine (but I won’t, because the exchange plans are cheaper).
You can keep your doctor
I’m keeping mine.
Premiums will drop by $2500
Mine are dropping more than that.
There has been zero effect on employement
Economists: Obamacare’s impact on jobs likely to be minimal
“The panel she describes, reviewing individual medical cases and making judgements based on “level of productivity in society”, ”
She was referring to a group of people, not an individual. And she is entirely right about the government deciding what groups of people are entitled to what levels of care. Which is why there is “free” birth control and subsidized abortions for women.
I lost my health insurance. I may be able to keep my doctor if I stay with the same insurance company. My premiums are not dropping. But it is pretty apparent that all of the words coming out of Obama’s mouth were just grandstanding and not truthful.
We have already seen the effects of Obamacare on the economy with the explosion in part time jobs, hours being cut, and stagnant hiring of fulltime workers. Then there are people losing their jobs, companies shutting down, and companies hunkering down instead of expanding.
Even the unions who supported Obamacare have said it will lead to the end of the fulltime worker.
We have to wait to see the full effects as people put all of their disposable money into insurance premiums instead of buying goods and services. People are going to be spending so much on premiums that they wont have money to pay their deductibles because providing access to health care doesn’t mean people can afford it, just like under the old system.
she is entirely right about the government deciding what groups of people are entitled to what levels of care. Which is why there is “free” birth control and subsidized abortions for women.
A government panel decided which preventative medical procedures and medication should be available without a co-pay — that’s why there’s free birth control, mammograms, colonoscopies, annual physicals, pap smears, etc. (Obamacare doesn’t subsidize abortion — you are misinformed about that). This has nothing to do with deciding whether a patient deserves life-saving care, as Palin alleged. A “which preventative care services should be free to the insured consumer, rather than being subject to deductibles and co-pays” panel is not a death panel.
We have already seen the effects of Obamacare on the economy with the explosion in part time jobs, hours being cut, and stagnant hiring of fulltime workers.
Economists have looked for those things, and haven’t found them.
Then there are people losing their jobs, companies shutting down, and companies hunkering down instead of expanding.
Those things were happening before Obamacare, and will happen after Obamacare — they’re features of capitalism. Economists have looked for evidence of Obamacare causing those problems, and so far have come up empty. Just read the link above, or Google “Obamacare job killer”.
” (Obamacare doesn’t subsidize abortion — you are misinformed about that).”
An insurance plan that covers abortion and is subsidized by the government does subsidize abortion.
“This has nothing to do with deciding whether a patient deserves life-saving care, as Palin alleged.”
She said the government will pick which groups of people to favor and disfavor. This is true. Obama ran on giving special treatment based on what ethnic and gender group you belong to.
“Economists have looked for those things, and haven’t found them.”
That is BS Jim. One has only to look at the multitude of companies who have changed their staffing policies and stated the changes were due to Obamacare. But then again you think the government shutdown was a catastrophe for the economy but that Obamacare will have no negative impacts. Just go look at the jobs data to see the explosion in part time jobs. We even talked about it a few weeks back.
“Those things were happening before Obamacare, and will happen after Obamacare — they’re features of capitalism.”
There are reasons for why these things happen in capitalism. And in this case the reason is Obamacare. Don’t blame capitalism for Obama’s actions.
“Economists have looked for evidence of Obamacare causing those problems”
Why not go straight to the businesses affected and listen to what they are saying about Obamacare? We don’t need gatekeepers of knowledge who throw the chicken bones and then interpret the signs.
And yes, I did lose my insurance. Obama lied. You bought his BS. The rest of us get to deal with the mess. Thanks.
There was the perverse incentive where someone could cut $2k from their income and get roughly $14k in health insurance subsidies.
Just what we need, yet more incentive to work less. This law is chock full of rookie mistakes like this. Hard to believe someone would claim this law has been “vetted” when there’s so much crap like this in there.
“Hard to believe someone would claim this law has been “vetted” when there’s so much crap like this in there.”
We all know this is just a trojan horse to break the backs of the private insurance companies so the government can swoop in, claim there was a market failure, and they have no choice but to institute government-run single payer.
Anything you hear by people claiming the law was vetted is a claim from ignorance by morons like Baghdad Jim, or just lies from people like Pelosi…or a perverted form of the truth by the people who actually want single-payer: it *was* vetted to achieve the goal of the destruction of the private insurance industry.
I mean, we just had a senator or sebellius or someone a couple weeks ago talk about single payer.
it *was* vetted to achieve the goal of the destruction of the private insurance industry
It received support from the private insurance industry, the people in the best position to evaluate how they’d be affected. As much as I’d personally like to see single-payer, your conspiracy theory doesn’t hold water.
Yes, it was supported by the insurance industry. You do realize that you just contradicted Obama and the Democrat party line? According to Obama the insurance industry fought against the bill. They didn’t want it says Obama. Insurance companies are the enemy says the Democrat party.
But turns out Democrats get lots of money from the insurance industry and like a law mandating everyone buy their product. Heck people who can’t afford it will get money from the tax payers for it.
It was clever to demonize their allies in the media but behind the scenes we know what you do.
Oh, and you might want to go watch the videos on youtube of Democrat healthcare activists, who had major roles in writing Obamacare, claiming it is a good path toward single payer. That is where this “conspiracy theory” sprung up, out of the words of Democrats.
the Democrat party line
There’s no Democrat party.
There’s no Democrat party.
I see that still gets you for some reason. But the Democrat Party is not a party furthering democracy, as Obamacare demonstrates. Hence, it doesn’t earn the epithet, “Democratic”.
Democrats refer to themselves this way so it works for me. Democratic also doesn’t sound very well so just roll with it. “The Democratics in congress today…” Just sounds stupid and I suspect this is why Democrats refer to themselves as Democrats and not Democratics.
Did you go watch some youtube videos of Democrat activists claiming that Obamacare is a good path toward single payer? If you don’t like people talking about what they said, then maybe you should take it up with the Democratics.
Ya, that just sounds stupid. Be happy your party decided to go by Democrat.
The two major parties are the Republican Party and the Democratic Party. Their members are Republicans and Democrats. It really isn’t that complicated.
Maybe the term “Democrat” Party is a useful one, as a way of distinguishing the Democratic Party of Jefferson and Jackson from what the Democratic Party has become, after being hijacked by the New Dealers and then THAT party being taken over, post-McGovern, by collectivist mountebanks, State-shtuppers and loons.
On the other hand, maybe the Democratic Party should be the “Paul Party,” after the saying, “Whoever robs Peter to pay Paul can always count on the support of Paul.”
by that logic Congress is a death panel
Every once in a while Jim, you do get a glimpse of reality. …or as your side puts it, “Bush lied and people died.” But of course, B.O. never lies and his policies have no consequences.