Everyone involved in the printer industry needs to be marched to the lip of a volcano and poked hard with tridents.
I feel his pain. I haven’t used my HP in weeks, which will neither print black and white, or scan, because it wants a new color cartridge.
Indeed. I hardly ever print anything anymore, and when I do, about 80% of the time there’s a problem with it.
Ah the classic “King Gillette” strategy. I always find it interesting how the biggest advocates of free markets complain the most about the outcomes.
Maybe things have changed since the last time I bought a printer but it used to almost be cheaper to just buy a new printer than to buy an ink cartridge.
So, Thomas, are you calling for government regulation of the printer industry? Or fantasizing that we are? Or what?
Don’t get ink-jet, get laser. That solves most of your problems.
Just pointing out the inconsistency in praising free markets while complaining about the results.
BTW I have had the same HP Printer/Scanner for 4 years with no problems. I wouldn’t use any other brand.
It’s kind of stupid to think that there is any such inconsistency. In free markets, one of the ways that products get improved is from customer complaints. Apparently that’s not how it works in Matulaworld. There would only be an inconsistency if we were demanding that the government do something about it. But sadly for your non-point, we are not.
Don’t get ink-jet, get laser.
I probably will, for a mission-critical device.
Eh? The “free market” produces 3rd party cartridges for $5 a pop. Where’s the beef?
If you have an ink-jet just refill the ink instead of buying “official” print cartridges. It is much much cheaper.
Rand,
So have you written HP about you complaint? Do they know you are unhappy? Or are the suppose they “discover” you are unhappy by reading your blog.
One of the conditions required for free markets to work is a constant flow of information between buyers and sellers. If you are not providing them with feedback you are undermining the system you are advocating.
Titus,
I guess Rand would rather trash HP then buy one.
Blogging a minor gripe over a recalcitrant printer is undermining free-market capitalism?
O…kay.
Really, Tom? I’m going to waste my time in voice-mail hell with HP to complain about a seven-year-old printer? That has given me problems from the beginning? And you think they don’t have someone monitoring Google to see what bloggers are saying?
I’m betraying capitalism and “inconsistent” if I don’t call HP? And if I publicly complain about their product?
Really?
Is that what passes for logic in your world?
While I’m not certain of the existance of Hell, if it does exist, I hope an especially unpleasant corner of it is reserved for some of the printer companies and for the people at Microsoft who keep dicking with their software user interfaces (especially Office 2007).
I feel an Office Space allusion coming on, to say nothing of Spatula’s Adlai Stevenson UN routine.
HP and Epson print drivers for home printing: Guaranteed to slow boot time by 30 seconds. Please guys, its not that hard, you can’t go look for the networked printer prior to the OS loading the network and completing the handshake. So remove the 15-30 second timeout during initialization, and then look for a connection on demand. Not everyone logs into and out of their always on home PC.
I have had an HP laser printer for years, and it performs well (the cartridge doesn’t have to be changed often, since I don’t print a whole lot, but I started buying them from Amazon since they’re so much cheaper there). B&W print only.
I also bought an inkjet a few years ago for about $100, so I could print in color when I need to (rarely), and it also acts as a copier, which comes in handy (it scans, too, but I haven’t figured that out). I’d have to replace one or another of the color cartridges much too often for the little amount of color prints I make, and sometimes it wouldn’t even let me copy in B&W until I replaced the color cartridge at a ridiculous price.
I was at Staples getting a cartridge (Magenta?!) and bitching to the guy there about having to replace the cartridges when I don’t print a lot of color (maybe 3 times a year), and he said the cartridges were probably clogging up for lack of use. So now I have a tickler on my calendar to print a color copy once a month. So far, so good….
I doubt your problem will be so easily solved, Rand, but I hope you get it solved. I’ve been quite satisfied with my HP (but then it takes me at least 6 months to go through a ream of paper).
This thread and Matula’s claim to be an educator is just more proof that the Education bubble is over inflated and needs to be popped.
Example:
One of the conditions required for free markets to work is a constant flow of information between buyers and sellers. If you are not providing them with feedback you are undermining the system you are advocating.
I used HP printers/scanners for over a decade. I purchased an Epson last year. Cartridges are cheaper and the user interface is much easier. Did I mention for the features, it costs less? That’s the free market.
If HP wants my feedback and engineering advice, they can contract for my services like everyone else does. If they want my customer loyalty, they’ll find what people are saying about them on the web (or at least research their competition) and improve their product to keep up. Goes for Apple and their now extremely dated iPhone as well.
HP’s consumer market printers (and most other brands) tend to be unreliable and are quickly destroyed by normal use. With inkjets, the same goes for lack of normal use. I scrapped my color inkjet for the same reasons people mention here.
Their business stuff – at least the products sold on service contracts – is far better. I have a used LaserJet 4. Not a 4L or 4P or anything else sold in the consumer market. I’m talking about the LaserJet 4 that was sold with service contracts. The kind the local hospitals had on every desk and counter.
It was used for a decade by the local phone company before I bought it from them. I’ve used it for another seven years and it still prints perfectly. Toner cartridges are still easy to find and print a lot more pages than the consumer ones – for the same price. New OS’s still come with drivers for it. When the Sun explodes and Earth is destroyed, I’m confident that it’ll still be orbiting in the rubble in working condition.
I’ll never go back to an inkjet. If I need photos printed, I’ll take them to one of the local stores that provide that service.
Or are the suppose they “discover” you are unhappy
Practicing English without a license I guess. I can see why he’s so in favor of open borders.
HP “customer support” is a waste of time. I bought an HP laptop last year, and it had to be serviced three times. Of those three times, they replaced the motherboard twice and the CPU twice. When I called them after they’d received it for the third time, and they told me they were replacing the CPU again, I asked them, since that didn’t fix the problem the last time, why were they doing it again, and at what point would they decide it made more sense to replace the entire machine than fruitlessly swap components. I got no good answer, of course, so I didn’t bother renewing the warranty when it ran out, and it died for good 18 months after I bought it.
Isn’t a loss of market share one way that producers “discover” that their customers are unhappy? Abandoning HP inkjet printers in favor of a more reliable laser printer or in favor of a different brand is just as clear of a “market signal” as calling them and sitting in their customer service queue…
Or did I dream up that entire chapter of economics?
The problem with inkjet printers is that lack of use causes the ink to dry out and clog up the tiny hoses. Printing something every couple of weeks or so should reduce that problem.
I work in a printing shop and we have only laser printers, in addition to offset presses.
Rand, I’d get laser even for my kid’s computer. The price differential between color laser and ink jet is now so low it makes absolutely no sense to buy an ink jet.
As everyone else said (and I told Lileks in comments the last TWO times this happened), never buy an inkjet (unless you’re doing daily photo-printing).
Lasers cost almost nothing.
John: Calling them has the advantage of letting them know *exactly* what you’re upset about; just buying another brand of printer might make them think “people aren’t buying HPs because the sticker price is too high or we don’t advertise enough”, not the real reason.
The best communication is communication.
Had problems with inkjet printers for years. I think it was mostly the drying and clogging issue discussed above. Never had much luck with refills. Hated spending ridiculous amounts for ink cartridges.
Got a cheap color laser. Absolutely love it. Just works. Had to replace black toner once, no problem.
Incidentally, a few months back I reminisced at the dinner table about my first printer, an Epson RX-80 dot matrix printer (tractor feed). My wife and kids laughed at me hysterically that I not only remembered a printer fondly, but knew the exact brand lettering. I used the durn thing for 7 years and then let my mother in law use it for another two. Only had to replace a cheap ribbon cartridge periodically. I also figured out how to program it and make big fonts using multiple passes. Boy do I have some wasted neurons.
“TheA problem with inkjet printers is that lack of use causes the ink to dry out and clog up the tiny hoses.”
FTFY.
(just in case the blog software mangles it, the first quoted word was struck out.)
@Roger Strong
I’ll second that opinion about HP’s business level printers. Not only are they workhorses but servicing them for the majority of issues is fairly straightforward. And the consumables are packaged well and easily swapped without spraying toner everywhere. We have a few Xerox Documate printers up at work and it’s near impossible not to spray toner out everywhere when swapping the cartridges. In fact the directions tell you to place 6 sheets of paper down below your work area when you do the swap so that it will catch the falling ink. Then the same printer developed a problem with the little eye that looks down into the cartridge to tell if it is empty or not and it was saying to replace a fresh cartridge and refused to print. Turns out you had to replace the entire top lid of the printer to replace the sensors.
@John B
Shush, John B. Thomas is just channeling his inner Obama trying to provide us with a teachable moment that our vitriol against HP is just like ordering up a ink jet covered Satan sandwich.
Epson RX-80 dot matrix printer
I finally turned mine in to an electronics recycling drive a year ago. I kept in on a self to remember quality as it used to be. But hey, I have a new Epson.
Rand,
I guess trashing the brand on your blog rather then dealing with the problem is rational in your world.
Leland,
Actually I do logoff and then I cut the power on the power strip.
Perhaps that is why I am able to run my laptop without anti-virus software and not get any viruses.
Leland,
[[[If HP wants my feedback and engineering advice, they can contract for my services like everyone else does. ]]]
Wow, you are stuck in a second wave mindset. Google the term “prosumer” to see how markets work in the Internet Age.
No wonder your economic ideas are so dated…
I guess trashing the brand on your blog rather then dealing with the problem is rational in your world.
In what way do you expect me to “deal with the problem” of a printer that is several years old, and has always been crap, except to point it out, and to purchase a different brand? And if I don’t do it your way (whatever way that is), I am a hypocrite because I defend the free market?
You are a nutcase.
I got a new set of (expensive) cartridges and it tells me the Cyan is empty.
I am so on your wavelength tonight Rand. I was cussing them (HP) not an hour ago.
HP used to make decent printers.
@Josh Reiter:
Keep in mind that Xerox laser printers trace their lineage back to their first successful copier, the Xerox 914. The 914 had a tendency to catch fire when overheated. To “solve” this problem, Xerox included a “Scorch Eliminator” (a small fire extinguisher) with the copier.
If that’s how it shipped, one can imagine what it was like during early testing. I’m reminded of a quote by Wernher von Braun, on the V2 rocket: “Our main goal for a long time was to make it more dangerous to be in the target area than to be part of the test crew.”
In any case, if you’re only thinking about killing your Xerox rather than it killing you, it should be considered a good consumer-friendly design.
@Roger Strong
Lol, that totally makes sense when I look into the internals on the Xerox and it strikes me that it was designed by a committee of engineers trying to pass the hot potato. Overly complex means of engaging fairly straight forward individual components into a monolithic printing device.
Rick C – HP is not the only culprit for this sort of thing. I still have an ancient Dell laptop, bought in 2000 I think. Two things about it, one of which is endemic among computer sellers:
One is that it’s an XP machine that was shipped with 256MB of memory – which is barely enough to run XP. And it’s on the maximum number of sticks, which means a memory upgrade means junking the memory. The other is a serious overheating problem, which led to repeatedly having to remove the hard disk (fortunately, on this model that isn’t all that difficult to do, and can be done while on the phone to Dell tech) and reseat it. “We know about this problem, and no you’re not going to get any compensation. The machine is only designed for light use.” Which was never mentioned in the advertising or spec sheets on their website, natch.
This was eight years ago. Perhaps not surprisingly, I’ll never buy a Dell again.
The only printer in my house is an HP laser printer that I can even use to print from my iPhone. I’ve only had to replace one of four toner cartridges after a few years of use. The printer didn’t cost much more than an inkjet would have, but it was still less expensive than replacing ink cartridges would have been over that period of time.
Actually I do logoff and then I cut the power on the power strip.
Perhaps that is why I am able to run my laptop without anti-virus software and not get any viruses.
Points to anyone who can make sense of this?
In what way do you expect me to “deal with the problem” of a printer that is several years old, and has always been crap, except to point it out, and to purchase a different brand? And if I don’t do it your way (whatever way that is), I am a hypocrite because I defend the free market?
You are a nutcase.
Rand, we need some higher quality trolls.
In honor of Titus’ High Speed Rail in response to Obama’s spending; I now suggest we respond to Matula with HP Printer Ink or as he may have it HPI. Obviously just the mention of HP Printer Ink drives him nuts. Maybe he will form the Ink Party.
“‘Actually I do logoff and then I cut the power on the power strip.
Perhaps that is why I am able to run my laptop without anti-virus software and not get any viruses.’
Points to anyone who can make sense of this?”
I facepalmed when I read Thomas’ assertion that switching off his power strip is saving him from viruses on his laptop……which has a battery in it. I think I’m adding that one to my patheon of utterly bizarre assertions made by end users. And believe me, I’ve worked on helpdesks since 1997 and have heard great many a whopper told.
Rand,
What is nuts is not returning a lemon product to the manufacturer or replacing. Only those folks who enjoy complaining about things would hold on to it for years and years.
But then given that the main purpose of this blog appears to be complaining about the world that probably explain why you still have it.
Josh,
I was speaking about my desktop. My laptop is an older model that allows me to switch off the wireless which I do when I am finished with the Internet.
I do download and run a virus scan once a month, alternating between my Norton and Macafee subscriptions but never find anything other then Adware. After the scan I delete the program because I find my system runs much faster, and gives less trouble without it.
As a side note I do have another desktop for my kids I leave on 24/7 and always connected to the Internet. I have Macafee on it 24/7 as well. It always seems full of viruses. A scan I ran a week ago had over 400 on it.
Frisking ahead…
I was speaking about my desktop. My laptop is an older model that allows me to switch off the wireless which I do when I am finished with the Internet.
You never mentioned desktop at all, but that’s ok because you’re next sentence is equally stupid. It’s a kin to saying you practice safe sex because you always pull out at the last second.
I do download and run a virus scan once a month, alternating between my Norton and Macafee subscriptions but never find anything other then Adware. After the scan I delete the program because I find my system runs much faster, and gives less trouble without it.
You mooch on free virus scans. I’m not surprised. If you’re finding adware, then you probably have other problems you haven’t found. But since you think running a free scan is sufficient, then I doubt your smart enough to find the other problems.
As a side note I do have another desktop for my kids I leave on 24/7 and always connected to the Internet. I have Macafee on it 24/7 as well. It always seems full of viruses. A scan I ran a week ago had over 400 on it.
Tell your kids to quit playing flash games and downloading illegal music and movies. Better yet, quit downloading porn on your kids computer and using them as a scapegoat.
Ack, fisking…
Leland,
What part of the word “subscriptions” don’t you understand?
That they give 90 day free trials, and if you bought an one year subscription for each and alternated between them, then you are more stupid than I originally suspected. My bad.