125 thoughts on “Is SF Becoming More Conservative?”

  2. I should add that Orson Scott Card got SF fandom pissed off when he went on his (ongoing) anti-gay rampage. I think he called California’s gay marriage act “the end of the Republic” or some such.

  5. I think the writers are all over the political spectrum. Some writers are libertarian. But others are quite socialistic. The cyberpunk writers tend to be socialistic, especially John Shirley. I like John Shirley’s writing, even though I dislike his politics, simply because he told a good story. On the other hand, I think Kim Stanley Robinson’s (who is also socialistic) stories are generally boring.

    I don’t read much SF these days. The only two writers I make a point to read over the past 10 years are Alastair Reynolds and Peter Hamilton. Reynolds is essentially apolitical and Hamilton strikes me as cautiously libertarian.

  6. Sf *and especially sf fandom *and* the sf publishing world* is OVERWHELMINGLY left-liberal, to the point of being members of the “reality-based community.”

    For example, I am now persona non grata on one sf-related website for having commented that I didn’t think that the moderator, one of the main editors of SF in the world, that I didn’t think that the moderator’s opinion that Ted Kennedy was the greatest senator of all time was, um, a bit hyperbolic.

    He was totally serious, BTW.

    This same editor, and most of his friends and the commentators there, think that Kos is simply the bee’s knees. For example.

    He and his website are considered by most of the SF world to be “centrist” or “libertarian-leaning.”

    SF “conservative?!” Give me a break.

  7. Tim Kyger – having read the comment thread (Google and an unusual name are so handy) you got banned for:

    1) Calling one of the most prolific commentors on the board a sock puppet
    2) Calling a commentor a ” Y’r fckng cnt” (okay around here, not so on Making Light)
    3) Making a really lousy non-apology “apology.”

    And apparently you have a personal history with the board owners, since they know your middle name and employment history.

    Other than that, you’re completely accurate in your assessment. (Do I need a ‘sarcasm’ tag?)

  9. I wish there was more libertarian sci-fi than there is. When you do have an author with any sort of respect for human freedom, they are usually the great ones: Heinlein, Anderson, ect.

    But, I think far from being libertarian, science fiction is getting increasingly and mindlessly either communist or authoritarian. To get any proper non-utopian optimism about mankind, technology, and the future, you have to go back to at least the 60s.

  10. I wonder why it is that, apart from a scattered few exceptions, every single bit of popular culture we have is written or directed by either utopian or dystopian socialists?

  12. Also, for those who think science fiction is “conservative”, I present this erudite, productivity-destroying discussion of space whales. I think science fiction is very much a mirror of our beliefs and desires. And environmentalists have gazed into the mirror as much as anyone else in their science fiction.

  13. I believe that John Scalzi could be labeled a liberal, yet I don’t get a liberal vibe in reading his stuff. If anything it is reminiscent of Heinlein who was a libertarian.

    I just like a good story and I’m willing to overlook some personal points of view as long as they aren’t in my face.

  14. Scalzi is a liberal. Anyone who writes a shoe-gazing, pity-orgy article about being poor wherein one of the Horrible Things About Being Poor is living in a neighborhood with broken glass on the sidewalk is a liberal.

  15. I think science fiction is very much a mirror of our beliefs and desires.

    This. There is nothing magical about SF writers which makes them less reflective of their cultures.

  16. @Chris Garrib: “Orson Scott Card got SF fandom pissed off when he went on his (ongoing) anti-gay rampage. I think he called California’s gay marriage act “the end of the Republic” or some such.”?

    “Act”? That wasn’t legislation. It was judicial fiat.

  17. So, Chris — am I inaccurate about my assessment about the SF world? Or about the politics of those I sited? Or about the political slant of the sf professional and fan worlds?

    I would guess — it’s only a guess — that you’re somewhat liberal, then?

    Cite me some examples, if that’s the case.

    The SF world is in no way whatsoever “conservative.”

  18. Does writing a video game like Doom count as science fiction writing? Although I don’t know John Carmack personally, he is an entrepreneur, which probably puts him in the Libertarian/Conservative group.

  19. Well, I haven’t read any SF more modern than Neal Stephenson. I’m so unhip I still think William Gibson is an up and coming whippersnapper. So I have no useful opinion on this.

    What I do wonder is whether the great infection of the fantasy sword ‘n’ sorcery romance writers has abated. I mean, blasters and hyperdrive are acceptable, if necessary for your story, but when it started with the psychic powers and turning into animals or whatnot, assorted necromancy and being the long-lost rightful heir of Persepolis, then I question why this chick and SNAG stuff is shelved next to my Niven and Asimov.

    I blame Gene Roddenberry, who in his dotage convinced too many people that SF was about exploring feelings — I sense a great nausea, Captain, as if thousands of voices barfed messily and were silenced — instead of rocketships, kzinti, and having enough cathode plates to get back from the Runaway Star after rescuing the Keeper.

  20. I read very little modern science fiction any more, in large part because of the socialistic tendencies of far too many of the writers. I did like the fact that Flint collected the writings of some very good older writers such as Anvil, Leinster(who was a socialist, but wrote interesting stories), and Schmitz.
    I find myself reading mostly medieval history for relaxation, along with some fantasy by Simon Green(who is virulently anti-gun) and Jim Butcher, who seems to be libertarian. I also like some of the novels published by Games Workshop. They tend to be a little over the top in gore, but some of the better novels do promote concepts such as honor, loyalty and courage.
    More and more these days, I regret selling my collection of Analog and Astounding SF magazines from the time of John Campbell’s editorship. It is too bad that, to the best of my knowledge, there are no complete sets available on CD or DVD.

  22. Tim Kyger – well, first off, you’re completely inaccurate as to why you were banned. You were banned because you acted like a jerk on a site ran by somebody (Teresa) who gets paid to de-jerkify comment threads.

    Regarding SF publishing: Orson Scott Card’s latest books are published by Tor (Patrick Neilsen Hayden’s shop) and Simon Pulse – both “liberal” New York publishing houses. (see the Amazon listing)

    Mike Z. Williamson, who jumped into the PJ Media article comment thread, is staunchly conservative. He’s the only man I know who defended Larry “Wide Stance” Craig. Mike also throws well-attended parties at SF cons – parties in which Mike wears his “infidel” T-shirt. (Good drinks, too.)

    In short, Tim, calling science fiction “left” or “right” is like asking for a left- or right-handed screwdriver.

    Andrea Harris – Scalzi writes about being poor because he was poor. Now he’s not. He is, in fact, a self-made man. It used to be that conservatives respected people who pulled themselves up by their bootstraps.

  23. It used to be that conservatives respected people who pulled themselves up by their bootstraps.

    We still do. And Scalzi is still a modern progressive liberal. Like you.

  24. I respect Scalzi for pulling himself up by his bootstraps. I disrespect him for being maudlin about once being poor. And if you read my post, I pointed out that I was poor too. Only, I wasn’t allowed to feel sorry for myself because of it. I wasn’t allowed to have a chip on my shoulder or envy people for having nicer homes and more things. I wasn’t allowed to wallow in self-pity. Instead, if I did my parents and grandparents were careful to point out that in comparison with most of the rest of the world I was quite well off. I had enough to eat, I had a roof over my head, and I was born in a generation that had more freedom than any other in the history of mankind.

    See, this is why I quit being a liberal. Apparently a liberal has to wallow in his or others’ feelings of victimization at all times. How dreary is that. I don’t know how you can stand it.

  25. Andrea – I’m sorry – I had assumed that you’d linked to Scalzi’s post and not your own.

    Having read your post, I can see that you completely missed the intended audience. The intended audience was the people I work with – very financially comfortable suburbanites who come from families of comfortable suburbanites.

    These are the people who don’t understand why poor people can’t afford health care, or don’t jump in their cars and evacuate when a hurricane might come by. The poor can’t afford even basic things, let alone a couple of nights in a hotel and eating out.

    But your lack of compassion is par for the course on this site.

  26. Pingback: Another Quote of the Day Contender | Professor Mondo

  27. I hope not. Otherwise, I’d have to resort to writing crap called Night of the Blood Jihad in order to sell anything.

    But then again, they’re reading Baen. Of course you’re going to be under the impression that sf is becoming more conservative when all you’re reading is Baen!

  28. Oh no! I have been accused of Not Being Nice by one of the chief pursed-mouth shemales of the internet! I shall hereby flagellate myself with a wet noodle! Not. Every time a self-proclaimed Arbiter of Compassion accuses me of being mean, God brings another adorable kitten into the world.

    And seriously, you’re a liar, or something, because the only way you could have gotten to Scalzi’s old post is through my post, which is what I linked in my comment, so that’s the only way you could have known what I was talking about, because Scalzi has been blogging for years and has eleventy billion posts, and that one is from 2005. I refuse to believe that you immediately knew which Scalzi article I was talking about. You could tell I linked to a non-Scalzi site by merely hovering over my link. Why do liberals always tell petty dumb lies like this? To divert the argument?

    In any case, if Scalzi’s intended audience was “very financially comfortable suburbanites who come from families of comfortable suburbanites” then explain why so many of his commenters came back with equally self-pitying paeans to their deprived childhoods? Most of which, by the way, weren’t deprived because they were “poor” in the traditional sense, but were instead mostly the special American variety of “poor” — which is pseudo-poor. Sure, they can’t afford a good car, or to shop at Whole Foods — because either they or their parents made dumb choices (made bad marriages, drank or did drugs, or were just idiots who made bad financial decisions). Most of the pseudo-poor in this country are in the predicaments they are in because they pissed their lives away waiting for a bag of money to drop out of the sky.

    I’ll tell you something about me: you know that mythical $800 car that “isn’t worth a damn” that Scalzi whined about needing to drive when he was Poor™? I drive a sixteen-year-old car that I paid one dollar for, and I’ve had it since 2007, and so far all I’ve had to do to it is get the oil changed, and once I had to buy a new battery. Oh yeah — and new battery terminals. They cost a couple of bucks. And I’ll tell you something else about me: I had bad teeth and no dental insurance, and only a part time job. So I went to the county clinic, and signed up, and was qualified for dental care, and got my teeth fixed. Sure I had to make appointments and fill out some forms. Every county in the USA has some form of free health care available to people under a certain level of income. You don’t have to wait for Momma Fed to bring you magical health dollars from DC. No one is stopping the “poor” from getting health care — or forcing them to drink the beer and smoke the cigarettes that too many of the “poor” waste their money on, when they aren’t busy spending their paychecks on lotto tickets. Your progressive boilerplate is smug garbage.

  29. But your lack of compassion is par for the course on this site.

    We lack compassion because our worldview and opinions are determined by logical thought instead of feelings.

    Talk about “par for the course” Chris.

    Anyone who hasn’t read Andrea’s absolutely outstanding fisking of John “pity me” Scalzi should take a few minutes. And the comments are pretty good too. “Gah”.

  30. I will admit, though, that my one dollar car was made in Japan. Dropping the A-bomb on the Japanese was the best thing we ever did. If we hadn’t they’d have warred themselves into bankruptcy and we’d never have all those Toyotas and Hondas that just won’t die.

  32. Andrea Harris – first off, I read Scalzi every day. So do 40,000 other people. Second place, his “Being Poor” article was published (with his permission) in a number of newspapers. Third, Scalzi’s “Being Poor” piece is still getting hits and commentary. Fourth, it was linked to by Making Light, the other major SF commentary site, which I also read every day. Fifth, nothing about your post suggests that the link leads to YOUR article.

    In short, Andrea, calling me a liar for claiming to have read one of the most popular articles by one of the most popular bloggers in the SF community is the very definition of stupidity.

    As far as the rest of your screed goes, the less said about it the better. You do seem to work hard to earn the “spleenville” title.

  33. I might be wrong, but I thought John’s piece was about being poor in the general abstract not specifics. It wasn’t a piece about when he couldn’t afford things when he was younger, it was about people who couldn’t afford things period and weren’t able to go to college and become a well paid freelance writer etc…

    I *might* be wrong but I’m fairly sure he’s posted his bio a few times and it came across to me as a fairly typical middle class one from the 1970s.

    As for the liar comments. Er… well, I know John to chat to at SF Cons, we were sitting next to each other at breakfast at the Worldcon the year before last… I suspect Chris, being, umm… a writer and all that… and a frequenter of more North American cons than I probably knows John personally…

    Based on his posts, statements and outright statements of opinion John’s pretty liberal and an Obama supporter.

    Any hoo…

    To agree, as happens once every blue moon, I suspect that what people are seeing as “conservative” is a libertarian streak which does run through SF Fandom in the way it runs through the IT industry. You can usually guarantee a fight in panels at SF cons on any topic where anything like Climate Change is discussed.

    However, the picture is more complex than that. Paul Krugman’s chat with Charlie Stross in Montreal in 2009 was hugely popular, as was his follow up talk later in the Con.

    British SF has a heavy left leaning strain: McLeod, Banks, Stross (although Charlie is a middle of the road Liberal by British standards)…

    Peter F Hamilton has been accused of being all over the political map and tends to include politics based on what he is seeing in the world at the time rather than any intent to put a specific worldview in his novels.

  34. Oh, I read John’s Blog everyday too… more frequently than this one now. Bet Rand’s happy about that :p

  35. Chris —

    I disagree with your assessment of why I might or might have not been tossed off of that site, but then I would, wouldn’t I?

    I also want to forestall the “being without compassion” trope here. I generally beleive what most of the folks (I suppose) think on this site. But I also work for Social Security, helping people out everyday who *need* help. I may be heartless, “abusive asshole,” but I am also trying to make the campground better than how I found it.

    As to what is *published* by the SF world…I never commented on that, nor on what might or might not be published in terms of the idological content of the books. I *did* comment on the social views of the publishing *world* of SF, and of SF fandom — and it is overwhemingly left to far left.

    This you have yet to address, not that you have to or anything. (You’ve addresed side issues, but then, to be fair, I began by probably raising side issues, too… 😉 )

  36. You do seem to work hard to earn the “spleenville” title.

    As far as what title you work hard to earn, the less said about it the better.

  37. Like Jiminator, I thought that “SF” was referring to San Francisco, not science fiction.

    That said, my own take is “no”, though I can’t claim to read widely enough in current SF to really given a supportable answer. On the other hand, I have been reading SF for 50 years, starting with the usual Heinlein/Clarke/Asimov/Norton juveniles (not to mention all of Tom Swift, Jr.), so I do have some historical perspective.

    To use some sweeping generalizations, pre-1960s SF was largely (though far from completely) apolitical; if there were politics, they tended to be conservative or libertarian. The “New Wave” movement of the 60s brought the liberal worldview front and center into SF, and it probably overpowered the conservative and libertarian worldview (in terms of volume) for 20 years or so. Then the rise of 2nd generation (post-Heinlein) military/conservative/libertarian SF started, in part encouraged and published by Jim Baen, and, from what I can tell, reached an equilibrium point within a decade or so. I suspect the political mix in SF has been relatively steady for the last 15-20 years.

    Though I could be wrong. ..bruce..

  38. So, btw, Andrea – you didn’t read the follow up that John Scalzi did on the piece you linked to did you?

  39. I refuse to believe that you immediately knew which Scalzi article I was talking about.

    Just to be clear. I *knew* too, without your link.

    He’s reposted it twice.

    And yes, John’s been blogging forever, it’s how he got his book deal.

  40. Daveon – yeah, I know Scalzi – I hung out with him at Confluence in 2009.

    Andrea Harris – oh, by the way, Boing Boing (one of the top 10 blogs on the Internet) also linked to “Being Poor.” Might as well as said that I couldn’t possibly have read a best-selling novel.

    Tim Kyger – well, considering that about five folks told you why you were tossed off the blog, and calling somebody “a f-ing [blank]” is usually a good way to get smacked in the mouth, I guess I don’t understand your confusion.

    Actually, I *did* answer your question about conservative SF. I said that Mike Z. Williamson manages to fill rooms with conservative friends. There’s one whole major publishing house (out of about 4) that’s chock full of conservatives. And since one of my very first panels as a panelist turned into a conservative vs. liberal screamfest, I’d say the mix in fandom is more like 40/60 conservative / liberal.

  41. But your lack of compassion is par for the course on this site.

    Gosh, how would you know a thing like that, Chris? Do you know how any of us treat our aged mothers with Alzheimer’s? Whether we’ve taken in a struggling relative or friend? Whether we invite out a newly divorced parent spending his first weekend without the children home? Do you know any of the charities with which we’re involved? Whether we shovel the walk for an old neighbor, take a meal over to someone with a new baby, offer a job to an ex-con trying to start fresh, how many times we forgive and take back the alcoholic and believe this time he can quit the sauce for good?

    My problem with your statement is you seem to think I gave at the office (through my taxes) is the main true measure of charity and human compassion. Because most of us are thoroughly disgusted with government’s waving of the bloody shirt of human misery to extort more taxes from us, which we believe it merely shovels out to its quite wealthy constituents — hiring more staffers and bureaucrats, padding the already fat pensions of cops and teachers, funneling subsidies to “green jobs” and “diversity coordinator” con artists — you leap to the conclusion we have no compassion?

    Chris, compassion is when A sees B in misery and helps out. It’s not when A and C see B in misery, and conspire to steal D’s wallet and give it to B.

  42. I’d say the mix in fandom is more like 40/60 conservative / liberal.

    Based on my experience at various WorldCons I’d say that’s fair, but the conservative/Libertarian block is more skewed to libertarian and they tend to shout MUCH louder than their counterparts.

    In UK SF it’s MUCH more left tilted, but it’s hard to plot that accurately as a fairly conservative Brit is probably more left wing than 70% of the US democratic party, so it becomes pretty meaningless.

    My experience of Scandanavian Fandom is that’s REALLY left wing.

  43. I’ve not been to a “con” since 1989. I’ve heard they have not gotten any better. If Kyger’s comments about “cons” are correct, I’m clearly not missing out on anything.

    I’ve noticed that SF section in bookstores have become mostly fantasy. Since fantasy people are mostly artsy types, they would likely be left of Lenin types.

    The only two SF writers I have read lately that I like are Reynolds and Hamilton. Reynold’s “Revelation Space” novels are excellent as are Hamilton’s “Commonwealth” novels. I’ve tried to real Iain Banks “Culture” novels, but I found these hard to read.

    I think SF writers as a whole are all over the map politically. I don’t think there is a conservative trend in SF in general.

  44. My problem with your statement is you seem to think I gave at the office (through my taxes) is the main true measure of charity and human compassion.

    How on earth did you draw that conclusion from what Chris said? Especially given I happen to know he’s active in his local rotary chapter, has family members who spend time on charitable activities for disadvantaged members of society who are REALLY not as looked after as they should be through taxation etc…

    Most of the more left-leaning people I know “give at the office” and then do additional charity work both with their time and money and don’t seem to begrudge either.

    All you’re doing here is creating a narrative in your mind about how you think it is and then projecting that onto the rest of the world and the rest of us…. it’s entertaining, but, like with much of the dreck peddled as “fact” on this blog – it’s about 180 degrees from the actual truth.

  45. Why no, Daveon, I totally didn’t follow up on his whiny rebuttal. (Note to Chris Gerrib and others who still don’t seem to have the hang of this “internet” thing — if you hover your mouse pointer over the link — that’s the different colored text — you’ll see in the status bar of your browser — if you have a standard browser — the actual url of the link. That way you can tell where it’s going. In this case it’s going to my search results page showing all three of my posts on the Scalzi article. I’m here to help.)

    As for the rest of it — as I am not in fact omniscient, I have no idea what your favorite websites are. And as I am not a Scalzi fan (I tried reading his Old Man’s War — the one everyone is always talking about — and got bored after the first few pages so never finished; I haven’t read anything on his blog in years) I really don’t keep track of where his articles are published and republished. It does dismay me — though it doesn’t surprise me — that his schmaltzy, self-aggrandizing display of his own Compassion™ was published by other sites. What can I say — lack of talent and/or originality was never a barrier to getting published in Old Media; looks like things are the same in New Media. This is why I’m cynical about the Brave New World we’ll be in once the dinosaurs of Old Media go down — their successors don’t seem to be any less driven by nepotism and social connections.

  46. Kurt – it depends on the Con you pick. There’s a lot of them and they do tend to have a different flavour depending on what sort of stuff you’re interested in.

    I suspect, although my sample size is only half a dozen, there’s a lot more Libertarian’s and Libertarian leaning programming at a US WorldCon than at smaller cons or those elsewhere in the world. Even then, Aleta Jackson and Dan DeLong spoke on several panels at the last British Worldcon – although I got the impression Aleta didn’t enjoy her panel with Geoff Ryman who *is* pretty left wing even by British standards.

  47. the follow up that John Scalzi did

    This?

    I wrote the list originally as something of a response to all the people who I saw having difficulty understanding why some of the poor prople in New Orleans stayed behind for the hurricane and its aftermath.

    Ohhhhh. NOW I can understand it! Don’t pity me, pity that guy behind the tree. “Why did I stay here when a hurricane is coming? Because I’m poor, silly.” And he was so eloquent about it. Such a soft touch. Such a WONDERFUL writer.

    It was designed to help them empathize with people who are in a similar economic situation with those people.

    Thank you John. I really needed that encouragement to empathy. And, did I say, you were so eloquent about it!

    It is by no means an exhaustive list for what it’s like to be poor worldwide, just poor where I (and much of the blogosphere) live.

    It’s not exhaustive? I… didn’t realize that. You being a writer and all (and an eloquent one at that), I’m sure you put together another one that IS exhaustive. Could you pretty please provide a link to it? I need more empathy.

  48. As for the rest of it — as I am not in fact omniscient, I have no idea what your favorite websites are.

    So why do you launch into whiny attacks about how we’re liars when it’s quite clear you haven’t a clue?

    It seems a bit daft frankly, and doesn’t do much other than make you look foolish.

  49. Actually, Carl, it’s more like A and C see B struggling, conspire to steal D’s wallet, and spend it all on Meetings and Conferences and Advertisements and Committees to “help” B. Who in the meantime has starved to death. And when A & C find out, they blame D because D, having no money (because his wallet had been stolen by A & C), had not been able to give B a job.

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