28 thoughts on “Too Much Time On His Hands”

1. Well it’s good to see you’ve put up a post on the important topic of the day… finally.

   Obviously, yes it is so, the movie has taken some exceptions from reality for the purposes of drama. It takes time for the observers to see the previous signal and time to get their signal going. But they are at war and their only purpose is to watch for and light their signal. So it may have taken minutes between signals, but certainly within an hour. As noted, at least one day passed before the final signal was lit.

   The real question is where Saraman got the genetic technology to produce uber-orcs.

2. I would turn the question around: you’re spending 3 hours in the theater watching these movies — how much more time do you want to spend watching old geezers lighting bonfires?

3. I initially thought, yeah, too much time on his hands. Nothing really useful here. Until I got to this:

   What would be the speed if someone really set this up – you never know, you might need to do this in the event of a zombie attack.

4. The scene as done in the movie was incredibly stupid. In the book it was a minor scene of some beacon fires being lit on top of hills along the road from Edoras to the Fields of Pelennor — not on the tops of snow-covered peaks that looked to be as high as the Alps and would be inaccessible today, never mind to a society at a medieval level of technology. Not to mention no one would have been able to see the fires on tops of said peaks, or else would have mistaken them for a natural phenomenon — lightning, or something. That entire scene in the movie as well as the shenanigans that led up to it were completely ridiculous and wrongheaded — for example, the movie had Denethor refusing to light the signal fires, whereas in the book he gave the frickin’ order to light the signal fires — and well in advance, not all of a sudden as in the film. The movie’s trashing of Denethor is another rant for another time.

5. And hey, “flying dragons” is redundant. And there aren’t any in the movies.

   (i appologize)

6. Not all dragons fly Curt… read some books instead of going to the movies all the time. Sheesh.

7. Not all dragons fly Curt… read some books instead of going to the movies all the time. Sheesh.

   Yeah I know. Hell, everyone knows how to kill one anyway; you shoot an arrow up its butt. Heinlein taught us all that 45 years ago.

   I was more irritated at the treatment of Faramir. Tolkien never had him say “the ring shall go to Gondor”, and did not have him act on it, whether he thought it or not. The scene at Osgiliath could have been filmed as it was without the three being there. I’ve never been able to figure out why Jackson did that.

8. Heinlein may have taught us how to kill a dragon, but I appreciate even more that Craig Ferguson has recently taught us how to train a dragon. At least, that’s the title of the film; I haven’t watched it to see if they actually present any useful techniques, though Craig’s involvement is almost enough to get me to watch it.

   I think that the second commenter over at the post hit the nail on the head. If Semaphore Lines were useful and reliable and somewhat expedient (compared to a horse and a messenger), then there’s no reason not to believe that a signal fire would have been equally expedient. Of course, you can’t really send as detailed of a message with fires as you can send with semaphores, so the usefulness of a signal fire line is somewhat limited in that regard.

9. Gaaaah! What is the matter with you people? It’s cinema! It’s supposed to be cinematic! Jackson’s Beacons of Gondor sequence is one of the best vignettes in the whole trilogy. I’ve watched the whole thing a half-dozen or so times, but I’ve run that bit, by itself, dozens more – all the way from doofy Pippin touching off the first beacon almost in spite of himself, out across the cyclopean snowscape of majestic peaks and yawning valleys as Howard Shore’s Gondor Theme sweeps along to the last bonfire above Edoras, then Aragon’s momentary loss of Ranger-ly cool as he dashes in to report and ask the key question, and the pregnant pause before the restored Theoden intones “And Rohan shall answer!” If you can watch that without a quickening of the pulse and the hairs on the back of your neck standing on end, then you have no soul.

10. Everyone knows you don’t stand in front of or behind the dragon, always fight it from the side. When the dragon takes to the air, wait for it to indicate which direction the attack is going to go and head in a perpendicular direction or break los.

11. Cinema is supposed to be cinematic? Why, that’s crazy talk…

12. I guess you have to be a LotR fan (which I’m not) to even understand the question.

    all the way from doofy Pippin touching off the first beacon almost in spite of himself, out across the cyclopean snowscape of majestic peaks and yawning valleys as Howard Shore’s Gondor Theme sweeps along to the last bonfire above Edoras, then Aragon’s momentary loss of Ranger-ly cool as he dashes in to report and ask the key question, and the pregnant pause before the restored Theoden intones “And Rohan shall answer!” If you can watch that without a quickening of the pulse and the hairs on the back of your neck standing on end, then you have no soul.

    And if you can write that without knowing how silly it sounds, you have lost your mind. 😉

13. I’m OK with the beacon reaction time. They could certainly have had some kind of get ready get set signal beforehand, that would have them waiting by the wood with their torches already alight at the designated this could be the moment time. Whatever.

    But I agree with Andrea about Denethor. He was one of the most complex and interesting characters Tolkien developed, a great man twisted by grief and bowed down by the weight of responsibility, and very reasonably inclined not to give credence to the wacky miracle fantasies of Gandalf Stormcrow. He brought alive what Tolkien saw as the essence of evil: not so much black-winged Nazgul as the surrender to despair, weariness, expediency and cynicism of otherwise good men. The way Denethor was portrayed in the movie was a disgrace.

    For that matter, so was the portrayal of Aragorn. I apologize to the ladies who find Vigo Mortensson restful on the eyes, but MY GOD he was for the most part a complete pussy. I wouldn’t follow his tortured bedroom-eyed ass into battle — particularly hopeless battle with orcs wearing 1 inch armor plate — for all the crack cocaine in Bolivia. Feh.

    Maybe that’s what you get for having a horror film director do the job. Let’s not even get into the endless pathos of Frodo and Sam. Oh Sam! Oh Frodo! Oh barf.

14. Now you have me wondering, in terms of both ethics and practicallity, what someone should do if they suddenly received literally all the crack cocaine in Bolivia. Apply for grant money to destroy it?

15. Dick Eagleson: sorry, have to disagree. The silliness of having the beacons flare out from the tops of inaccessible, Alps-high, perpetual-snow-covered mountain tops was so ridiculous it cut into the corny “cinematic” feeling. There were other scenes in the trilogy that were done so much better that didn’t need any extra “embellishments” — the scene of the Rohirrim riding into battle on the Fields of Pelennor for one thing; that was almost like the scene in the bookm, and it was magnificent.

    Don’t get me started on Faramir. They trashed him too, and the reason they did it was because they thought his character as conceived by Tolkien was too “pure” for reality. This is what our civilization has come to: no one can recognize the portrayal of an actual good man who can control his own desires for power and riches and what-have-you. They think that everyone would jump at the chance to steal Frodo’s ring, and it’s unrealistic to expect that anyone could resist. And they think that Christians are too harshly judgmental about sin.

    What else. Oh yeah. What Carl Pham says about Aragorn in the movie I also have to agree on, though his characterization wasn’t as painfully bad as some of the others’. The decision to “pussify” him came about because they wanted to have Arwen have more of a role in the movie than in the book. It didn’t work, to say the least.

16. I didn’t know there was crack cocaine in Bolivia. Am I to understand it would take more than one flush to, er, flush it?

17. They trashed him too, and the reason they did it was because they thought his character as conceived by Tolkien was too “pure” for reality.

    I thought it was because it would make a boring storyline, to wit:

    Frodo: “Hey, we have Sauron’s magic ring of power…”

    Faramir: “If it were laying by the side of the road, I would not pick it up to save Middle Earth…”

    Frodo: “Whoa, save the morality speeches for Ayn Rand… let’s just get to Mordor.”

    Faramir: “Proper. Got me some Powa’ Rangers — let’s do it.”

    etc….

18. The original Faramir storyline and character are only boring to someone locked into this day and age’s attitude.

19. No, I think Jackson could have made it interesting, Andrea. All he had to do was put the South Ithilien interlude soon enough after Amon Hen, and contrast Faramir with Boromir. He could even have amped up Frodo’s anxiety that Boromir’s brother would prove to be as susceptible to the ring’s influence as Boromir himself.

    It’s unclear why he didn’t, except that I think Jackson didn’t quite “get” that aspect of the tale — the enormous evil seductiveness of using the ring “for good.” Probably he’s a Democrat and would, himself, gladly use the Ring “for good,” being unable to comprehend the nature of Faustian bargains and never having observed the paving material of the road to Hell.

20. I’m very forgiving of the Jackson interpretation. Among other things, he gave a lot of dimension to characters that were otherwise too limited in the books. Not just Boromir, but, for example, Galadriel (and even her hubby, Celebor gets a little speaking role), Saruman, and the Ring itself (just to list a few appearing in the first movie). In the books, one doesn’t really get a feel for the power of the Ring to entice and corrupt (outside of Gollum and the story of Isildur). It’s much clearer in the movie and you actually see the Ring on numerous occasions working its will.

21. I’m with Dick Eagleson on this one. It’s inspiring and remarkable and shows Jackson’s cinematic mastery.

    Ok so it helps that I hadn’t read the books since the late ’60’s.

    Yes, yes, sitting atop those mountains, blah blah, all improbable yeah.

    Probably even more ridiculous (but just as inspiring) is Rohan riding off a full gallop to reach Gondor, without apparently stopping that I recall. But how many movies/tv recognize that horses can only gallop for pretty short times?

    And how about eagles the size of elephants, or thereabouts?

    Look, poetic license has been around since before Homer. So has reinterpreting material, whether or not to fit a different form of presentation.

    Did the films work as cinema? Did they tell a meaningful and touching story? For me it worked on these levels and many more.

22. You must have read a different book than I did. I actually liked Jackson’s treatment of Boromir, and didn’t find it any different from the book’s version in character delineation, which is the important thing. His treatment of Faramir, however, differed very greatly from the book, and in a way detrimental to the character and story: in the book, Faramir was supposed to be a contrast to his brother — unlike Boromir he was able to refuse the Ring’s attraction. In the movie he’s just as bad as Boromir if not worse, because he actually has Frodo and Sam tied up and dragged about! That was pointless and as well undercut the book’s theme that the human race was not unredeemable but in fact as capable of nobility as the Elves. The movie’s viewpoint seems to be, at least in the Faramir scenes, almost saying that the human race left to it’s own devices is irredeemably wicked, and can only be saved by the ministration of non-human creatures, here the hobbits, elsewhere the Elves. (I continue to find it interesting that it is the modern, secular people who have such a despairing view of humanity as basically unredeemable sinners, while Christians like Tolkien have a more hopeful view.)

    Also if you ask me Jackson actually treated the Ring more lightly than in the book. In the book it was made clear that the very sight of it could drive susceptible personalities mad — in fact, even the thought of it was enough to drive Boromir to attack Frodo. In the movie it’s tossed about by various characters almost like a toy. Boromir actually holds it in an early scene — by the chain it’s true, but it never would have done for him to get hold of it in the book, as he would then made sure never to let it go. I understand some of this was for dramatic reasons, and mostly the scenes worked. But I think the treatment the Ring got in the book made it seem even more evil. Likewise the way in the book we never fully see Sauron, just his eye… But Jackson making Sauron basically just a big eye on a stalk was rather silly. Tolkien did a painting of Sauron once that made it clear that he was a humanoid if gigantic and demonic being with one eye. But he also had hands, one of which only had nine fingers because the one with the Ring had been chopped off.

23. Charles: in the book the Rohirrim did not gallop nonstop to Gondor — they took a slow journey for several days. They didn’t start galloping until they reached the battlefield. You should probably read the books again.

    I will agree that the movies did a lot of things right. Some of the things done in the movies that weren’t in the book worked; some of the things that the movies tried to stay faithful to the book versions of didn’t. And vice-versa. Really, I didn’t have any problem with most of the cinematic embellishments (like, for example, having the Elves come help the Rohirrim fight at Helm’s Deep — that was not in the book). My problem was when he started tampering with the characters and making them more “modern” so, presumably, stupid modern audiences could “identify with” them. (For example, making Elrond cynical and despairing so that Galadriel has to give him a pep talk; making Arwen some kind of warrior woman — which really undercut Eowyn, dammit!; making Faramir a weaker copy ofhis brother; turning Denethor from a rigid yet dedicated warrior-leader who snaps only at the end from strain and despair into some kind of debauched ogre… it really sucks because when Jackson got the characters right, it was perfect — Gandalf, Gollum, Sam.)

24. (I forgot to add that my comment above the previous one was to Karl Hallowell.)

25. I’ll agree that the message content potential of a roaring blaze is small. In this case the message was *HELP!* in the event of a breakdown in the containment of Mordor. Not knowing the particulars of the Gondorran Code of Military Justice I can see a string of fire starters in fear of their lives if they don’t get that fire moving, fast. I suspect our guys in the silos in the ’80s were not noticeably slower in response times than their earlier peers in the ’60s and that was without a steward possibly breathing down their necks.

26. I don’t know; if I had a thousand years to prepare for an invasion from Mordor, I think you could get a cord of wood up that mountain side. And, if there’s one ledge on a treeless mountainside that is visible from both this mountain and that mountain, and I had to carry all my wood across the plains of Rohan, up the side of the White Mountains, and then on a rope the last 300 feet up a cliff, I can see taking the opportunity to soak it in pitch first so that it starts quickly. It’s not like they just built a fire with what they had.

    I was never in the military, but I understand they’re into this “discipline” thing. They say the fires hadn’t been lit in generations, but maybe they just meant “for reals”. Maybe they drill every month or something to keep the soldiers sharp. I don’t think it’s so unlikely.

    I was pretty upset about the treatment of Faramir. He was my favorite man in the book because he was the only human to resist the ring (except Aragorn, who was too perfect to be interesting in the book and would have looked like a jack@$$ if you filmed that), and they took that from him. I was very happy when he married Eowyn, my favorite woman in the book. But, in a movie, if you can’t see it, then it has no impact. The scene as written would have looked really boring on film.

    The elves didn’t come, but didn’t the Dunedain? Elrond, who is half-human, sent his sons, who were high-ranking members of the Dunedain, to fight with Aragorn where ever the found him (or something). If you factor in the movie white-washing Elrond’s complicated heritage, that elves suddenly lived in Rivendell (in the book, they lived in the valley outside it and human elf-friends lived in Rivendell itself), and all of that, it makes sense that it changed to elves coming to Helm’s Deep.

27. You must not have read the book in years. Beware, I am Deep Geek about this.

    1) Elves and some humans lived together in the valley, which was called Rivendell. The house Elrond lived in was called the Last Homely House in the West, and served as both his home and a kind of guest house for weary travellers. It is claer that many people who lived in the valley also lived in the house, but the house was IN the valley, not outside of it. It was up on a slope, I believe, and you got to the house by crossing a deep stream (the Bruinen) by a narrow bridge, but all this was IN Rivendell.

    2) The stuff about military discipline and preparation has no bearing upon my argument that the mountain top fires were ridiculous because the White Mountains were clearly meant to be as high as the Alps at least, and thus their TOPS were not easily accessible to a people with a medieval level of technology. As well, any signal fires on the TOPS of such high mountains would not be visible to people on the plains below, or if they were they would be too far away to mean anything. In the book the fires were — yes — prepared on the tops of HILLS overlooking the road from Edoras in Rohan to Minas Tirith in Gondor. They were meant to be seen from the road, to signal the troops riding along it. Men were already garrisoned on the hills, ready to set the fires. It’s like how in the US Indians would set fires on hills to pass smoke signals. Indians did not climb up onto the tops of the Rockies to do that, they chose places sufficiently high to be seen from the lands below.

    3) Yes, Elrond sent his sons who were part Elf and part human (three-quarters Elf actually; Elrond was half-Elf and he married an Elf lady). That’s why I really didn’t mind the Elves in the movie, though it kind of watered down the whole idea that the Elves were basically on their way out and saving Middle Earth was up to mortals.

    4) I think they could have made the Eowyn-Faramir romance work in the film if they hadn’t decided to trash Faramir’s character instead. But they chose to build up Arwen’s part instead. Really, the movie focused a whole lot more on the royal characters than the book did. And they call Tolkien a snob!

28. the Elves were basically on their way out and saving Middle Earth was up to mortals.

    Which didn’t preclude some elves from helping out. But what happened to Bombadil?

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