From Charles Lane:
Last time I checked, the Constitution expressly forbid the establishment of religion. How can it be consistent with that mandate and the deeply held political and cultural values that it expresses for the U.S. government to “reach out” to another government because the people it rules are mostly of a particular faith?
To be sure, the U.S. government has an interest in good relations with all the people of the world, regardless of their religion. We have, perhaps, a particular interest in combating hostility toward our country and its people among the Muslim faithful, because much terrorism is rooted in extreme Islamist ideology.
But does it follow that the U.S. government should seek cooperation on space projects with the government of a particular country explicitly because its people are mostly Muslim?
Doesn’t this put us in the position of categorizing nations by religion as opposed to other characteristics, such as whether they are democratic? We did not pursue space partnerships with Europe because it was “Christian” or Israel because it was Jewish, did we?There are two risks here. The first is to encourage Islamic identity politics in states that already consider themselves Islamic — Pakistan comes to mind. The second is to discourage those prospective space partners that do not accept the label of “Muslim” or “Muslim-majority” that the administration seems so eager to pin on them.
And Charles Krauthammer:
Obama is not the first president with a large streak of narcissism. But the others had equally expansive feelings about their country. Obama’s modesty about America would be more understandable if he treated himself with the same reserve. What is odd is to have a president so convinced of his own magnificence — yet not of his own country’s.
This was such a stupid completely unforced error, driven by moronic political correctness in the White House. They can’t utter the word “Muslim” when one shoots up an Army base while calling himself a soldier of Allah, but they can pervert NASA in its name. It’s a tragedy that one of the smartest space policies we’ve ever had has come from one of the most idiotic and incompetent administrations, poisoning the well for it. Lori Garver, Bobby Braun and others have to be pulling their hair in frustration.
I wouldn’t minimize the Islamic contributions to science. They’re developing an atomic bomb and a missile capable of reaching most of Europe. That isn’t easy…
This is completely in character, once you acknowledge that you are not living in an exceptional country amongst exceptional people. Anything that may demonstrate that you are must be brought down. After all, it is far easier to lower yourself to their level than to bring them up to yours.
don’t forget the buzzing prayer rug
I think we’re overreacting. My suspicion is Obama and Bolden had a discussion what NASA might accomplish, and rather than moon flights and planetary science, the president chose to be philosophical about encouraging children to be scientists, about tuning down the rage of Arab teenagers, etc. Legitimate things for the president to be thinking about, likely posed in such a form that Bolden could view them as directives, albeit disappointing to those who would like their space agency to do more in, y’know, space.
MfK, what are you talking about?
“about tuning down the rage of Arab teenagers”
who is promoting this “rage”? rage about what?
The space race began as a global competition, but, today, it is a global collaboration.
Bolden added that the United States cannot get to Mars without international assistance.
Is that so? What’s wrong with competition?
Mr. Bolden was not told that he must advance American interests in space…
If not America’s, who’s? Isn’t this treason?
A more serious task might be to make them feel terrible about the present level of education in Muslim lands, not least for women and girls, in the hope that we could spur them to reform and improvement.
Exactly right. In other words, let them compete and improve.
Obama says, “I believe in American exceptionalism…”
Can we call him a flat out liar now?
Why is this president and his appointments (dean Kagan for example helped muslim groups while denying the military) promoting Islam? This is much more than just trying to get along. Sending the bust of Churchill back to England demonstrates an undeniable animosity to one of our best allies. Turn off the sound and every action tells you all you need to know about this administration.
I think we’re overreacting.
If this were an isolated incident you might have been considered right. It isn’t. We aren’t acting enough. People need a kick in the pants to start paying more attention. These actions as a whole tell us it’s not just incompetence. This is intent to bring down America including small ways. You can’t just chalk it up to stupidity when it’s so well orchestrated.
Mike,
Of the 3 million foreign patents in the US, less than 2,000 have come from Muslim countries. Their entire culture needs changing before NASA can have any effect or benefit in those countries. Being nice or trying to educate them is a sign of Western weakness in their eyes. Even Obama bringing this up shows incompetence, and the NASA administrator shows more incompetence by repeating this nonsense. They both need to go.
“Of the 3 million foreign patents in the US, less than 2,000 have come from Muslim countries”
That is a red herring of a statistic, and indicates a culture that doesn’t have patents rather than a lack of innovation. Considering the fact that silly ideas like one-click shopping and super-luminal spaceflight technology have been patented, I certainly wouldn’t give much credit even to American patents. I would also be curious about what criteria is used for determining if a country was “Muslim” or not.
Islamic scientists invented Algebra, modern navigation principles (especially with the astrolabe), mapped the skies including naming most of the visible stars (many of which retain their Arabic names in English), and preserved ancient knowledge at a time most of Europe was killing itself. The tradition of science, technology, and learning is very much a part of Islamic culture. Literacy among most muslims remains extremely high, and certainly ranks with most 1st world countries.
If there is a problem with most Muslim countries, it has to center on the fact that most of them are still monarchies (or tyrannical dictatorships) and that the people lack basic freedoms to express themselves politically and culturally. For countries like Quatar and Dubai [UAE] (with arguably much more freedom), standards of living equal or even surpass that of America and Europe. It certainly has little to do with the religion itself. Wahhabism is also a significant problem as that political movement is anti-science and is responsible for the philosophical underpinnings of al-Queida. If you want to point out problems in Muslim countries, that would certainly be a better place to look at. Then again, fully denouncing Wahabism would also force a break relations with Saudi Arabia, an important “strategic ally” in the Middle East for America.
Islamic scientists
Islamic or Arab? They invented plenty before the 4th century.
Another view of Islam’s contribution to civilization.
This all just illustrates how effectively our society has been undermined by post-modernism, and lost interest in the things that made it great. No guts, no glory, and if anything characterizes Obama’s foreign policy . . .
Americans have not just lost their confidence, they’ve become ashamed of it, if Obama is representative. This is just the latest in a series of chillingly fatuous statements issuing from this government.
Robert wrote “Islamic scientists invented Algebra, modern navigation principles (especially with the astrolabe), mapped the skies including naming most of the visible stars (many of which retain their Arabic names in English), and preserved ancient knowledge at a time most of Europe was killing itself.”
You need to eschew PC multi-cultural talking points and look at actual history. The Arabs who made those great contributions to civilization were pre-Islam. Since Islam, not so much. Facts are troublesome things.
“Islamic scientists invented algebra…”
Oh what BS. Muslim civilization may have had its day but the Muslims by no means invented algebra or any other branch of mathematics. At the most they polished it up and systematized it a bit, but the principles of algebra have been known and used since the time of ancient Greece, and much of what “Islamic scientists” are credited with coming up with were actually appropriated from Indian mathematics — in other words, from Hindus and Buddhists. That, by the way, is just a link to Wikipedia, which usually sucks up to Muslims, but you can’t ignore giant in-your-face truths like the fact that just because something has a name in a certain language doesn’t mean the speakers of that language invented that thing.
As others have ably pointed out, where Islam is concerned, algebra, etc. are largely cases of what Ayn Rand called “stolen value” – work done by others claimed as one’s own.
Literacy among most muslims remains extremely high, and certainly ranks with most 1st world countries.
This is simply laughable. The CIA Factbook says eight countries account for 2/3 of the 785 million illiterates in the world. Four of these eight are Muslim: Egypt, Bangladesh, Indonesia, Pakistan. Two others, India and Nigeria, have sizable Muslim populations. Illiteracy rates in the Maghreb countries of North Africa and even the oil-rich nations of the Middle East are 25% or more, including non-Arab Iran. The most illiterate country with a large population, Afghanistan, is also Muslim. Literacy, far from ranking high in the Islamic world, severely lags the rest of the world. It would be only a slight exaggeration, in fact, to state that illiteracy is almost uniquely an Islamic problem.
The tradition of science, technology, and learning is very much a part of Islamic culture.
No it isn’t. Most Islamic countries, especially those in the Middle East, are products of a tribal barbarian warrior culture that disdains any work not related to combat as unsuitable for men. To this day, most Muslim nations rely on imported technicians to build and operate critical infrastructure as their own male citizens reject such work as beneath their dignity and their female citizens are barely allowed to work at all. Even the maintenance of their military equipment is generally in the hands of trained foreigners as their own citizens lack both the inclination and education to allow self-sufficiency.
If there is a problem with most Muslim countries, it has to center on the fact that most of them are still monarchies (or tyrannical dictatorships) and that the people lack basic freedoms to express themselves politically and culturally.
Duh. And why is this so? See tribal barbarian warrior culture above.
It certainly has little to do with the religion itself.
On the contrary. Islam was invented by a warrior tribal barbarian and fully incorporates the warrior tribal barbarian ethos – and also that of the pedophile, by the way, as Islam’s founder was one of those as well.
For countries like Quatar and Dubai [UAE] (with arguably much more freedom), standards of living equal or even surpass that of America and Europe.
Only three oil-rich Islamic countries – all with tiny populations – surpass the U.S. in GDP per capita: Qatar, Kuwait and Brunei. Even the rest of the Persian Gulf oil mini-states do not do so. Dubai, by the way, is not a country. It is part of the United Arab Emirates.
The UAE might have been on the list with the other three micro-states mentioned above in prior years, but the UAE’s oil production is in rapid decline. They are already at roughly 90% of U.S. GDP per capita levels and seem fated to continue their downward slide.
The more populous oil-producing Islamic states are way down the list and have never been very high up on it. The non-oil-producing Islamic countries are, of course, even worse off.
As to median standards of living, the situation is even worse than GDP per capita comparisons might suggest. I should point out that the income gap between rulers and ruled in these places is extreme owing to the same cultural factors even you acknowledge. It is, indeed, good to be King. To be anybody else in these benighted places, not so much.
Bolden added that the United States cannot get to Mars without international assistance.
Is that so? What’s wrong with competition?
Have you not learned anything from the education establishment over the last 20 years? Competition is bad. Be definition, with competition some people will win and some will lose. Those that lost might suffer damage their all important self-esteem. Schools all over America have bent over (backwards or forewards, I’m not sure) to eliminate keeping score at sporting events, get rid of dodgeball, etc.
/sarc
Dick Eagleson – You left out the zoophilia and homosexual rape that are also part of Islamic (because it came from Arab) “culture”.
“MfK, what are you talking about?”
Iran.
I am utterly dismayed here with the racism that has been displayed here with the rebuttals about Islam. Frankly, you could replace the word “Islam” or “Muslim” with “Jew” or “Negro” for most of what was said above and it would have passed a purity test for political opinion in the 1930’s.
I have several close personal friends who are Muslim, and I’ve made it a point to read the Quoran and to actually get to know the religion a bit. Literacy is highly valued, particularly reading the scriptures and learning about science as well. When I say there is an Islamic scientific tradition, this isn’t fantasy land but talking with real people who are engaged in scientific research.
Are there political problems with many of the countries in the Middle East? Absolutely! Are there political philosophies within Islam that are dangerous and need to be rooted out? Even if it takes a major war to make a difference? Perhaps. I’m not defending every action by people in this region, but this sentiment expressed above sounds like the same kind of mob mentality that has cause most of the atrocious messes in American history that get quietly swept under the rug.
For myself, I think that a little bit of outreach is certainly useful, and Bolden explaining to a largely Arabic audience that the Obama administration is trying to reach out to people in the Middle East for cooperation and involvement in the scientific process for missions that NASA may be involved with in the future sounds like a pretty good thing. Perhaps Bolden could have expressed that sentiment much better and with more eloquant words.
BTW, in regards to the list of countries that represent most of the world’s illiteracy, it perhaps is worth mentioning that five of those eight countries are also former colonies of England (arguably perhaps even China, but that is very debatable). Does that say something about Muslim or English culture? Statistics can be skewed any way you like, as can blame. It doesn’t help that many of the countries mentioned are also the most populous in the world… sort of skewing the statistics even more.
I am utterly dismayed here with the racism that has been displayed here with the rebuttals about Islam. Frankly, you could replace the word “Islam” or “Muslim” with “Jew” or “Negro” for most of what was said above and it would have passed a purity test for political opinion in the 1930’s.
Horseshit.
Islam is a belief system, not a race.
I have several close personal friends who are Muslim, and I’ve made it a point to read the Quoran and to actually get to know the religion a bit.
Have you read it in Arabic? If not, you haven’t read it.
Muslim people are people like people everywhere. Islam is the problem. There is definitely something pathological about teaching children to be bombs.
Arab numerals are pretty much universal, but the Arabs got them from India. Other than good press agents, Arab nations do not have much to crow about.
It takes some critical thinking to realize that it doesn’t matter if the koran says some nice things, at its foundation it says kill or enslave. Take one clean hand and one filled with mud; rubbing them together does not result in two clean hands.
Even Satan turns himself into an angel of light. Satan is the father of the lie. Islam takes lying to new levels… start with, ‘religion of peace.’
Hate what is bad.
Mr. Horning,
Echoing our esteemed host here, nothing I said was in any way racist. It was to be sure, quite critical of Arab culture and the religion which has been essentially inseparable from said culture for nearly a millenium and a half.
Unless you hold to the ideas of the crackpot philosophy of multiculturalism, in which culture and race are seen as an indivisible identity relatonship – and neither is to be criticized in any way, unless it be “white” and American – then I fail to see any basis for your objections, and no rational basis in any event.
For Islam is, indeed, a religion, not a race. It is, especially, not the Arab race. As adherents of Islam, Arabs are vastly outnumbered by Sindhis and Punjabis (Pakistan) Bengalis (Bangladesh) and Malays (Malaysia, Indonesia). There are many other distinctly non-Arab populations that are dominantly Muslim as well.
It is worth noting that all of the named ethnicities, and many more I have not named, are still, by and large, at the tribal barbarian level of social organization. This has had, among other deleterious consequences, a tendency to produce a bumper crop of failed and semi-failed states in a world in which the dominant basic political entity is the nation-state.
The reason for this is that tribalism, as a social form, lacks any ability to scale to nation-state size. Tribalism takes an all-or-nothing view of power and ownership. Where one tribe attains power, every other tribe will be scheming to knock it down. Perpetual turmoil is the outcome. Tribes simply have an innate inability to play nicely with others and develop rational approaches to conflict resolution short of genocidal warfare. The continent of Africa, alone, provides dozens of sanguinary examples of the truth of this thesis. Hobbes was right.
Islam, being a product of tribal barbarian origins, has “baked in” all of the assumptions of that social form, just at the religious community level. All Muslims are, theoretically, brothers, but the uber-tribalism of Islam has, as is everywhere apparent, hardly supplanted the immemorial tribal identities when push really comes to shove. The brotherhood of Islam only seems fully operative when non-Muslims are in the mix.
As to your friends, I too have been acquainted with numerous Muslims over the years who were involved in science and technology. The key point is that they were so involved here and not in their own countries of origin for the good and sufficient reason that there were virtually no such opportuniies to be had in such places.
Individual human beings are quite capable of changing their spots, so to speak. Once out of the all-pervading atmosphere of ancestral tribalist bloody-mindedness of their homelands, many Muslims – Arab and otherwise – have made significant contributions to science, technology and medicine. My point is simply that these contributions would never have been possible had their makers remained for their entire lives mired in the irredentist and violently enforced traditionalism of their native cultures.
You left out the zoophilia and homosexual rape that are also part of Islamic (because it came from Arab) “culture”.
Mainly for reasons of space, Fletch. Not because I couldn’t have said plenty on the subject, believe me. Maybe another time. I have this feeling there will be another time.
A lot of you are seriously underestimating the level of Muslim innovation when Muslim culture was in its prime. The astronomers weren’t just stealing from Ptolemy, they were doing original work of considerable importance.
http://willscommonplacebook.blogspot.com/2009/06/obamas-cairo-speech-and-muslim.html
Sure, Will. The trouble is that all that stopped eight hundred years ago.
MfK, I thought so. Iran isn’t a Muslim country deadshit.
Iran isn’t a Muslim country
Really? So that thing about it being an Islamic Republic is just cover for all of the rampant Lutheranism and Judaism?
Persian 51%, Azeri 24%, Gilaki and Mazandarani 8%, Kurd 7%, Arab 3%, Lur 2%, Baloch 2%, Turkmen 2%, other 1%
Trent, perhaps you meant not Arab?
Muslim 98% (Shia 89%, Sunni 9%), other (includes Zoroastrian, Jewish, Christian, and Baha’i) 2%
Indeed I did.. duh. Sorry MfK.
I don’t know why they call our numbers arabic numbers … I’ve been to Egypt and the numbers there look nothing like ours!
Has anyone tried to learn the arabic alphabet? I have … what a mess. The shape of the letters change depending on their position in the word (first, middle, or last).
Then there is the annoying habit of not using vowels. Cn u mgn hw dffclt t wld b t fgr t hw t prnnc wrds wtht vwls? (Can you imagine how difficult it would be to figure out how to pronounce words without vowels?) Buy a vowel and stick it in and see if works for you.
I’ve even seen calls for Persians to return to the pre-Islamic Avestan alphabet.
Regardless of all that. I have nothing against Muslim astronauts or scientists per se. But I don’t think it should be a NASA priority to make them feel good about themselves.
I just thought Mfk was a bit pre-mature in his assessment, but then, what does it matter if nobody is stopping them from reaching that technological level within a year or two.
And the Sajjil-2 is reported to have a 2000-km range, but what is its payload capability for that distance?
And the Sajjil-2 is reported to have a 2000-km range, but what is its payload capability for that distance?
Ah, but you forget the parallel advances in Muslim maritime technology (i.e., putting stuff in shipping containers).