Putting aside the obvious strawmen (no one was arguing that there would “be no more Hamas,” or not a single rocket), what history has shown is that 3,000 rockets, missiles, and mortars landed in Israel in 2008 before the Gaza incursion, and that includes a lengthy cease-fire period. Since the end of the Gaza incursion, only about 200 projectiles have fallen in Israel from Gaza, and, I believe, none have caused physical injuries. Other commentators (but not Greenwald) have acknowledged that they were wrong about the efficacy of Israel’s military action.
But let’s repeat the initial point: Greenwald thinks that ANY military action that Israel may take against Hamas is illegitimate, and that Israel’s only proper response to whatever violence Hamas unleashes is diplomacy. If Hamas decides to adhere to its stated policy that its goal is the destruction of Israel and the exile of its inhabitants, and acts accordingly, Israel’s only resort is apparently to surrender.
And while we’re on the subject of Greenwald, here’s an interview with Greenwald in which he (a) claims that Israel’s boarding of a blockade-running ship violates international law because the ship was in international waters. Ruth Wedgwood, an actual expert in international law, then comes on to rebut him. I’m not an international law expert, and it’s not my cup of tea, but if you’re going to cite international law, you might as well get it right, and my understanding is that Greenwald is simply wrong here.
As was pointed out in the previous thread, if a ship is declaring an intention to run a blockade, it doesn’t matter where it is boarded. And the notion that this was piracy is ludicrous. Yes, this may have been a PR blunder of the first magnitude for Israel, but it wasn’t “illegal,” “piracy,” or a “massacre.” And of course, Israel is in the position of Caesar’s wife, and no matter what it does, other than surrender, it will be criticized.
[Update in the afternoon]
It’s Jenin all over again. As Mark Twain said, a lie will travel all the way around the world before the truth can get its boots on.
[Update a few minutes later]
Stopped clock alert. Joe Biden says that (unlike health care) the Israeli boarding was no big f’ing deal:
“[The Israelis have] said, ‘Here you go. You’re in the Mediterranean. This ship — if you divert slightly north you can unload it and we’ll get the stuff into Gaza.’ So what’s the big deal here? What’s the big deal of insisting it go straight to Gaza? Well, it’s legitimate for Israel to say, ‘I don’t know what’s on that ship. These guys are dropping eight — 3,000 rockets on my people,'” Biden said.
Between this, and the comments of the Secretary of State, it looks like the administration finally realizes that they went overboard on their own recent Israel bashing. This won’t make their leftist base happy.
Dick
interesting but you seem to leave out some history.
The Arab civilization was quite advanced until the 1500s, they were
fairly horrified at the barbarian crusaders showing up and trashing their cities.
The Arabs had marvelous math and libraries and water systems.
The Arabs were also under the Byzatine turks for 300 years and
didn’t merge cultures.
So how did the northern irish matter get settled, did the irish suddenly get civilized in the 1990’s?
cecil
we have been engaging in transformation via Walmart and Michael Jackson.
The tools have changed.
Well put, Dick. Wasted on some here I think, but still, nicely done.
“The Arabs had marvelous math and libraries and water systems.”
As did the Romans half a millenia before, what’s your point?
The Muslims are still trying to establish the Global Caliphate, over the Jews’ dead (or dhimified) bodies (and yours too, BTW).
“So how did the northern irish matter get settled, did the irish suddenly get civilized in the 1990’s?”
If by Northern Irish you mean the IRA (and it’s various splinters), then in a manner of speaking, yes. They declared a cease fire and used Sinn Fein to broker a political settlement. The “Palestinian” terror groups have not done so, nor are they likely to try.
jack: we have been engaging in transformation via Walmart and Michael Jackson.
Michael Jackson is dead, as is your brain evidently.
jack,
You’ll note I referred to Islamic civilization, not Arab civilization, as there has never been any such thing, though there have been, and continue to be, civilized Arabs. The so-called Arab civilization so often cited by multi-culti types attempting to make nice with the various Islamic rage boys of the world was not Arab in origin, it was an amalgam of the civilizations of Persia, Turkey and the Egyptian Copts, all of whom became subjects of conquest by the expanding Arabian Empire under the driving force of the recently invented Islamic religion beginning in the 7th century. Having been wildly successful at conquest over a short period of time, the Arabs did what newly rich tribalist conquerors always do, they fell to squabbling over the spoils including titular leadership of the One True Faith. The Sunni-Shia split dates from this time and other lesser schisms have cloven Islam – and Arabia – since. The Arab influence on their subject civilizations was not, long term, a happy one as the advanced mathematics, astronomy, etc. commonly attributed to Arabs, but actually the work of Turks, Kurds, Copts and Persians, continued to advance for a time, but, as Arab population grew and displaced the conquered races, so the stultifying dictates of tribal tradition trumped intellectual inquiry and the cultural vitality of the area faltered and died. All of this was several centuries past by 1500 A.D. – as were the Crusades also.
The Crusades, by the way, were not the unprovoked aggressions of viciously expansionist “Christianists” as many apologists for Islamists on the contemporary left like to style them. Much of the Middle East, especially Coptic Egypt, had been Christian for centuries when the Arab conquerors came boiling out of the desert and swept all before them. The Christians of Europe were simply looking to take back what had been lost. Not an ultimately successful effort, but perfectly understandable in the context of the times. Adherents of Islam often have a different take on who the good and bad guys are, to be sure, but, like their erstwhile Crusader adversaries, they find no problem in expressing nostalgia for the way things were back when they were running, say, Spain, and still look forward to displacing we infidel dogs once more should Allah will it.
By the time the Turks got back the upper hand in the Islamic world their main interest in the Arabs was in controlling them, not civilizing them. They saw the Arabs as people who would always be “The Other” even if they shared, more or less, a common religion.
You are correct about Wal Mart and Michael Jackson, however. The greatest guarantor of tribalism’s continuity has always been the physical and informational isolation of its indigenes. In this sense, the most disruptive force destabilizing ancient tribal societies is the rapid incursion of cell phones and entertainment electronics into areas that were formerly effectively sealed off from contact with the larger world by barriers of distance and near-universal illiteracy. As the city slickers of one of our own now-bygone eras put it about American rustics of the day, “How’re you gonna keep ’em down on the farm once they’ve seen Paree?”
This is probably wasted effort on my part but I have to try. Jack, those “advanced Arab cultures” were just the more advanced cultures the Muslims took over by armed conquest. The so-called “Arabic numeral system” is actually from India. Indian civilization existed for thousands of years previous to the Muslim conquest of those lands. The Muslims conquered a weak, decadent, but culturally advanced Persia, which had existed for thousands of years before Muhammed even existed. And so on. Wherever the Muslims conquered, they were clever enough at first to incorporate the superior science, technology, and culture of the various civilizations they took over. Then they spread propaganda (and are still spreading it) about how they invented all the stuff they stole. But it’s not true.
This isn’t secret knowledge. You can easily find out these facts by going to your local library.
And of course, what Dick said. I type too slowly.
Cecll
MJ may be dead but the king of pop still made the billboard top 200 last year.
If we sell more albums in Saudi it may drive the al qaeda insane
So jack… the US, Israel and the rest of the civilized (ie non-muslim) world should base their security strategy on the vain hope of pop music sales in Saudi Arabia?
Thanks for an insight into the thought processes that lead people like you to voting for morons like Obama, Reid and Pelosi.
Cecil
if you don’t think cultural engagement is the way to pull the arabs away from
the Fundamentalists, Okay.
However, bombing them isn’t going to make them like you.
The Fundies of all stripes hate personal pleasure and personal choice.
They like the Falwells and the Evangelicals want to ban alcohol, Marijuana,
Music, Dancing between the sexes, women driving, women going to school.
Western Fashion.
Now, when individuals in the arab world start listening to Michael Jackson, and Heavy Metal, and the Beatles and shopping at WalMart and buying cheap consumer goods and start spending less time at the mosque and less time listening to tapes of OBL, we win, they lose.
McDonalds, Microsoft, WalMart, Michael Jackson, those are the tools
of cultural imperialism. Hollywood movies. The Taliban hates all those.
Almost as much as Bill OReilly and the Fundamentalist Bible Thumpers we have here.
Every McDonalds franchise is a step towards Globalism, Cultural interchange, common values. Every Baskin Robbins franchise is a step towards
interchange. Every Movie badly dubbed is a advertisement for our way of life and a vote against the mullahs.
We sure didn’t win the Vietnam war with our army, but, we are sure doing well with walmart there.
jack, you misunderstand. I don’t care if they like me or not. What I want is to insure they can’t hurt me or mine. And the best way to do that is disarm them, by whatever means necessary and with as much force as necessary.
“cultural engagement” has never defeated a determined foe. Compared to that sort of thinking Chamberlain looks like a brilliant statesman.
The point you’re missing jack is they don’t want to be like us, they want to kill us (or turn us into an oppressed underclass, whichever). They don’t want Wallmart or McD’s or Michael Jackson. Why can’t you see that?
“However, bombing them isn’t going to make them like you.”
‘Let them hate, so long as they fear.’
“they can’t hurt me or mine.”
Where do you define your interests? Israel, Russia, Spain, Norway,India?
jack, my interests lie with any people under the same threat that led to 9/11, IE islamic extremist terrorism. It is a scourge that must be eradicated from this planet.
So islamic extremists under command in Pakistan attack Mumbai killing dozens including hunting jews at the jewish center.
Do you support the billions we give to pakistan?
Ronald Reagan poured billions into islamic extremists in afghanistan, was that a mistake?
15 of the 19 9/11 Hijackers were Saudi nationals, do you support our policies of backing the saudis including buying billions of dollars of oil from them?
You’re real funny jack, your strawmen are even more so.