No matter how much the White House and the MSM want them to, about the birth certificate. Tom Maguire lays out the state of play. Put me in category three, along with his reader (as I’ve said, though not so clearly, for many months):
I would also posit that there are THREE “camps” of thought that get lumped into the “birther” category.
The first two are as [AllahPundit] stated.
The third is where I would put myself – a person:
1) who wonders why it is so difficult for Obama to provide an actual Birth Certificate; and
2) who sees a connection between the lack of details and secrecy regarding Obama’s birth and the lack of details and secrecy about so much else of Obama’s life – his connections to Ayers, his grades in college, the papers he published, the lectures he taught, etc.I don’t think Obama was born in Kenya or any other place other than Hawaii.
But I find it outrageous and ridiculous that we know more about Sarah Palin and Joe the Plumber than we know about Obama.
Yup.
For someone who is supposedly all about transparency, his past seems to be quite opaque. And the uncuriosity on the part of the media would be puzzling, if one actually took them at their word about, you know, “afflicting the comfortable, and comforting the afflicted.” Because Barack Obama seems to be pretty damned comfortable to me. And those of us who are afflicted with concern about just what kind of president we have need, if not a little comfort, at least a little honesty. Or at least an honest attempt to get it from this White House. We’re not so stupid, though, as to suspend respiration while waiting.
I wonder if this is one of those topics on which Ferris is willing to “agree to disagree” ??
🙂
It seems unlikely…
But I don’t understand why any reasonable person wouldn’t wonder about the expensive secrecy concerning his birth and academic records. What is he hiding?
I think on this question Obama is taking the proper attitude. Nothing he does will satisfy the doubters, so why jump through hoops for them?
He is in a similar position to the moon landing doubters who wonder why, if Aldrin actually did land on the moon, why he won’t swear to that on the Bible? Aldrin’s attitude is, quite reasonably, that his sworn statement will not convince the doubters and is unnecessary for everyone else so what’s in it for him? Jumping through hoops for these people merely makes them seem more important than they really are.
And I’m not suggesting that birthers are on the same intellectual level as moon landing doubters. I’m just suggesting that the social dynamics are similar.
He is in a similar position to the moon landing doubters who wonder why, if Aldrin actually did land on the moon, why he won’t swear to that on the Bible?
Sorry, Jim, but one of these things is not like the other. Do I really have to explain why?
Yeah, God forbid we make the most powerful man in the world jump through hoops.
I tend to think that if there were any possibility of Obama not having been a natural-born citizen, the Clinton campaign would have figured out how to expose it. It’s not like they were a bunch of shrinking violets. But the fact is that Obama’s whole career was marked by the mysterious (and illegal) appearance and disappearance of official documents whenever it was useful to him, e.g., his opponent’s sealed divorce records mysteriously being made public n the Senate race. It’s the Chicago way. So, the suspicions of the birthers aren’t entirely absurd.
What this episode does point out is the need for a clear and unambiguous method of resolving questions regarding a candidate’s eligibility for the office. Since the candidate needs to file for a Presidential run with the Federal Elections Commission, it would make sense for them to make a determination of eligibility, backed with full subpoena powers. It would also be useful to be able to get determinations on issues of constitutional interpretation such the question that arose about John McCain’s eligibility, based on his birth in the Panama Canal Zone. An ability of the FEC to ask for a determination directly from the Supreme Court would permit these issues to be resolved before the election actually took place, which would be nice.
I don’t see myself as a “birther,” but I do think something needs to be done to ensure that future presidential candidates are vetted on whether they are qualified as set forth in the Constitution.
Then again, part of the constitutional qualifications for California’s attorney general got set aside for Jerry Brown in 2006, by a judge who decided those qualifications were an administrative matter rather than a requirement written into the founding charter of the state’s system of government.
Rand, I find your interest in Obama’s academic records surprising. I’ve met too many dummies who had terrific grades and enough geniuses with terrible grades to believe that grades can be much help in judging a person. And given your belief in an “academic bubble”, I thought you didn’t believe it either.
In any case, I can’t imagine what grades would reveal about Obama that we don’t already know. Say he got a “D” in English one year — what would that tell you? Are you just interested in transparency for transparency’s sake? In that case, how nosy do you want to be?
Bob, you know what? If everyone who told me to vote for him hadn’t told me how brilliant he was, I wouldn’t give a damn about his academic records.
Think about it. Just a little.
See, the problem is, I don’t see any evidence of it, empirically speaking. So I’m curious to know on what basis they told me that…
So the actual both cetificate wasn’t enough for you then?
So the actual both cetificate wasn’t enough for you then?
So actually reading and comprehending what we’ve been talking about wasn’t enough for you then?
Never mind, it’s obvious that you didn’t, or couldn’t.
Rand, I did think about it, more than a little. Obama regularly speaks publicly in unscripted environments where participants have a chance to ask him thoughtful questions, and he has an opportunity to give thoughtful answers. I’m thinking of examples such as interviews on Fox News or Obama’s recent question and answer session at the House Republican retreat. Most observers come to the conclusion that Obama is quite bright. You come to the opposite conclusion. So be it. Academic records won’t tell you anything new.
I know a tenured neurology professor who is successful, respected, and influential (in his narrow domain). Most people who know him consider him the smartest person they know. I know first hand what a goof-off he was when he was in college. His grades were awful and he didn’t receive a BS. He talked his way into grad school. As you might know, at some grad schools, grades aren’t the focus — the work is. He worked hard, and defended his PhD easily. There probably isn’t a transcript from grad school which shows how smart he is, but I know his undergrad transcript shows why he flunked out. You don’t have to be a neurologist like him to know that grades don’t reflect brilliance.
Rand.
An argument which starts from a false assumption is suspect. There is a birth certificate it’s legal. It’s valid. Everything else thy follows is built on the suposition that there’s something dodgy happening.
There isn’t. He won. Your side lost.
You seem upset. Take a valium.
Daveon, if Rand will permit an off-topic question, who do you support for PM in the UK’s upcoming election? (And to put it back on topic, do you know for sure that all three of those guys are British citizens?!)
Switching to PC for this one…
To be a pendant first. You don’t vote for “PM” you vote for your local MP. The leader of the party with the most seats is generally, but not always, invited by the monarch to form a government.
However, in general, good question. I didn’t bothering registering for a vote where I own a place in London so it’s all academic…
The short answer is I can’t give you an answer. I tend to feel that there should be a pox on all their houses.
If I were in the UK there’s probably no force on earth that would have me voting Labour, apart from the appalling record they have on the economy, liberty and a bunch of other stuff, they’ve been in power too long.
Historically my entire family are Tories, and my mother is still a serving Tory councilor but, frankly, David Cameron is an arse and his team appear to be a collection of rectums.
Which leaves the Lib-Dems who have some excellent policies on civil liberty but some awful economic ones. I tend to agree with them on the subject of Trident and elements of their taxation policy but apart from that as they can’t win, it does seem irrelevant.
I voted Lib-Dem last time around but that was a protest vote in a safe Tory seat where it made zero difference. The time before that I voted Tory in a safe Labour seat…
I suspect, had I bothered with a postal vote, I’d probably whoever had the best chance of beating the oily idiot Labour minister who was my MP.
As for their nationality? I assume they’re all Brits although there aren’t any specific rules about that under what laughably passes for a British constitution. I’m pretty sure being a legal resident is enough.
For heavens sake they let Robert Maxwell into parliament.
Daveon, thanks. I’d be surprised by your lack of ideological zeal, except that everyone else I talk to from the UK seems similarly afflicted. What a weird election. I think the UK is ripe for its own progressive inspirational leader, as well as its own conservative tea party type movement.
I wasn’t familiar with Robert Maxwell’s story, so I looked him up on Wikipdia. At first, I wondered why you wouldn’t want him in parliament — the guy fought his way across Europe on behalf of the UK. But as I continued to read his wikipedia entry, my mouth dropped open in surprise.
What a story!
(Rand, thanks for hosting this off-topic conversation.)
If there was any chance that Obama wasn’t born in the old US of A, the secret service would have found that out before he was even allowed on the ballot.
Sorry, Jim, but one of these things is not like the other. Do I really have to explain why?
Yes, please, I’m interested.
You did that on purpose, didn’t you?
Rand,
there is a 4th category.
I agree with that writers two categories.
BUT I think Obama was born in Kenya.
I think HE thought he was a citizen until SO late in his career, that he was STUCK with the story and just kept the “myth” alive. He may have known even as early as in college though, but it’s still a problem. Here’s why I say that.
I grew up next door to a young lady who was adopted at age 6 or 7, her brother was adopted too. She used her adopted fathers name as her last name as is usual in such matters. She went all through school, through college, got married, had a son of her own, and when she was in her 30’s and going through a divorce, found out she was NEVER really adopted. No one knew that her step father had not gone and done the legal leg work, even her mother was in the dark.
It caused her to have to file legal addendums of clarification (I’m not sure what the legal term is) almost everywhere she’d ever eaten!! Much less where she’d gone to school, lived, worked, etc.
Her brother had trouble over it too. He was a government employee and had to prove he wasn’t in on the “scam”.
That was in 1979 or so and covered 20 odd years.
My wife’s great-grand mother married a man in the early 1900’s. They changed all the children’s last names to the new husbands last name, no legal adoptions were done. My wife uncovered that little “secret” doing genealogy work. My father-in-law did NOT know of it until then. One of his Aunts did, but she never told anyone.
Mrs. Der Schtumpy discovered that in 2002, roughly 100 years post the original event, my F-i-L was in his 70’s, my Mother-in-Law was dead and thus never learned it.
I was in the military with a guy who had that same problem. His father died in 1959 when he was very young. He didn’t find out he WASN’T really adopted, until he had to have his birth certificate to join the Navy. When his mother re-married, the kids changed schools, and she told the new schools that the children’s last name was the new husband’s last name. No paperwork, no lawyers, no judges, again.
That was in 1979, he was 18 or 19, so roughly 20 years.
Given all that, and the fact that it all covers the span of Obama’s life certainly, I can see how “Barry” Obama could get into his late 30’s or later and THEN find out he’s NOT a citizen. By then he’s ridden a wave of events that REQUIRED citizenship or notification to various authorities that “Barry” was NOT a citizen and thus NOT eligible for school, school loans and God knows what else.
And IF he got into Harvard as an American Minoroty Student, or got into “crip” classes at Harvard (even Harvard has them kids) because he was an African American, emphasis on AMERICAN at all times here, then he wasn’t really supposed to be in the classes, at the park, in summer camp, or wherever a sign up was required, was he? That simple “lie”, “falsehood”, “secret” ties it all together and brings the birth certificate back in over and over.
Let me say, they guy could have been born on the Moon, in the Capitol Rotunda or in Kenya, he STILL sucks as a Chief Executive. The birth cert thing just means he should never gotten there in the first place. Although I’m considering AZ again as a place to move to.
AZ seems to be coming out of the “blind idiot fog” most of America is still in.
His mother was American and he has never renounced his citizenship, therefore he is a citizen. I think the President is right to do what he’s doing from a political matter because there may well be other stuff he’s hiding. So long as the birther kooks are chasing him after this stuff, he can point and laugh. And if he is ever required to show a birth certificate — which I trust will show he was born in Hawaii, as he says — he’ll never have to reveal another thing about his life. Transcripts or theses or whatever, he can then say “hey, I showed my birth certificate and it was just as I said it was.”
Bob, you continue (as you often do) to miss the point. I’m curious to know what is in his academic records that he considers so politically damaging that he refuses to allow us to see them. The same thing with his original birth certificate. My guess as to the latter is that there’s either something about his religion, or his paternity, that he prefers us not to know.
Bull’s eye, Schtumpy. I was 16 before I found out my ‘uncle’ that I was named after was my father and my father wasn’t.
So the actual both cetificate wasn’t enough
The only birth certificate the public has ever seen was a fraudulent one on B.O.’s web site. Why not post his real one instead of making one up? Very curious. We’ve seen his COLB. For my first 16 years of life I could have produced any of four different names on my birth certificate (my ‘father’ was going from state to state, changing names as he went, of six kids, to avoid legal hassles.) …and I’ve never run for president.
B.O. has three reported birth sites, one in Kenya and two in Hawaii. For some, his birth announcement in the Hawaiian newspaper settles the issue. The joke is supposed to be, did they know he was going to be president (looking into their crystal ball) to place those announcements there? But there is a simpler explanation that doesn’t require prophecy.
Being an American citizen has it’s advantages, even in the 60’s. So, call the papers when your flight lands to announce the birth (how pregnant was his mother on the flight from Kenya anyway? Did they allow women that pregnant to fly on planes in 1961?) and tell everyone he was born in Hawaii (but get the story straight so you don’t tell two different sites to people and cause some confusion.)
People have said they’ve seen his birth certificate that we the public don’t get to see. His grandmother says she was at his birth… in Kenya. People lie. I believe granny (rather than somebody in govt. after B.O. made a sudden trip to HA.)
B.O. has political ties to Kenya. Reporters going to Kenya have been jailed looking into the truth. Why? Why does B.O. fight to keep his birth certificate hidden? Why spend the money? To embarrass his opponents? I don’t buy it.
If there was any chance that Obama wasn’t born in the old US of A, the secret service would have found that out before he was even allowed on the ballot.
They have no responsibility to do so, or even to do an investigation.
You seem upset.
I’m not upset. At least not about this. I’m simply curious.
Take a valium.
Take a smart pill.
Among other things, moon landing doubters are unconvincible, and it’s about a technical issue that many can’t understand. In addition, there are no legal or political implications of whether or not NASA actually landed on the moon, unlike this situation, in which the president’s eligibility for office hinges on the issue. Also, he doesn’t have to make any kind of complex technical argument to resolve it. All he has to do is release some documents.
For the record, I don’t believe B.O. ever landed on the moon. :-p
We do know, for an absolute fact, that B.O. is a serial liar. We do know that Americans assume this to be a nation of law and AZ is doing something about it. We know that journalists are incurious basterds when it comes to exposing the truth they claim to revere so much.
What happens after Barry is out of office and it is confirmed he was born in Kenya?
Ha-rummph! Rand, you say that I missed the point?! A few comments back you said: “If everyone who told me to vote for him hadn’t told me how brilliant he was, I wouldn’t give a damn about his academic records.”
Ok, so I addressed the question of whether his grades have anything to do with whether he is brilliant or not, and now you say that I missed the point, and actually, you want to know whether there is anything politically embarrassing in his academic record. No wonder I “missed the point” — I didn’t know to compensate for the fact that it is a moving target!
—
People who want to be sure Obama met the constitutional requirements for the presidency have a good point. People who just want to nose around looking for embarrassing but irrelevant personal details are just driving good people out of politics.
I think it is terrible that Clinton lied under oath, but I didn’t need to know where he put his cigar. I think it is terrible that Jack Ryan was driven from the senate race in Illinois because details of his unrequited sexual desires with his wife became public. Ryan is the kind of person I want to see in politics, and I don’t give a damn about what he does with his wife, as long as it isn’t abusive. I liked it when Obama told everyone to back off regarding that subject, and no, I don’t think Obama had anything to do with the records’ release, and yes, I think Obama would have trounced Ryan on the merits of their respective arguments fair and square.
I’m sure you would like to find embarrassing details on Obama, but please don’t delude yourself by using words like “transparency” into thinking that your desire is somehow noble.
I think it is terrible that Clinton lied under oath, but I didn’t need to know where he put his cigar.
No one did. But by continuing to lie, and redefining the words “sex,” and “is,” Starr had to document and prove it. And he didn’t just “lie under oath.” He obstructed justice, suborning the perjury of others through witness bribery and intimidation.
I’m sure you would like to find embarrassing details on Obama, but please don’t delude yourself by using words like “transparency” into thinking that your desire is somehow noble.
Why are you sure of that? I am simply curious to know what he doesn’t want us to know. I wonder why you are not.
I don’t think the issue is “embarrassing” so much as “fraudulent.” And politically damaging. Perhaps you’re comfortable with a president who defrauded and mythologized his way into office. I’m not.
Ken Anthony,
What happens when BO is out of office?
Hand wringing, lots of finger pointing and a lot more blogging.
Can be either entertaining or a “blogging” nuisance!
Rand, do you expect to find fraud if you look into Obama’s academic record? I thought you just wanted to know what his grades were.
Rand, his presidency is “historic” and the ends justifies the means, anywho.
Surely all presidents mythologize themselves into office (or it is done for them by their supporters). It is bipartisan and par for the course.
By the way, Daveon gave any “birther” or “fraud’ proponents here the best gift you could get. Robert Maxwell’s story is a conspiracy-lover’s dream come true. I’m still boggled by it.
If the only qualification for running for the presidency is to be a natural born American citizen then it seems reasonable to confirm this before the election rather than afterwards. However, there may still be a lot of argument about the veracity of the certificate itself.
Perhaps DNA Parental Tests for all candidates and a video of the birth would be the only way to quell these arguments! But then, someone would say; “Swapped at Birth”! Where does it end?
I’m curious to know what is in his academic records that he considers so politically damaging that he refuses to allow us to see them.
Rand, you’re big on logical fallacies, what’s the name for the one you’re using here? Is it usually called “assuming the conclusion”, or is there some other term?
The only birth certificate the public has ever seen was a fraudulent one on B.O.’s web site. Why not post his real one instead of making one up?
My wife was born in Hawaii (or so she tells me…), a few years before Obama. We recently cleaned her office, and could not find her original birth certificate. So she contacted the health records office in Honolulu, provided them with the relevant information, and they sent her a nice green certificate of live birth. It looks exactly like the one Obama put on his website, the one that the State of Hawaii authenticated as genuine.
So, should I doubt my wife’s citizenship? What might she be hiding?
It’s called “begging the question.” If you have an alternate explanation as to why he doesn’t allow us to see his academic records, how about providing it?
Rand, do you expect to find fraud if you look into Obama’s academic record? I thought you just wanted to know what his grades were.
I have no expectations. I have curiosity.
If, for instance, it were to turn out that he took a class from Bill Ayers at Columbia, that would mean that he lied to us when he told us he was “just a guy in his neighborhood.”
I’m still waiting for someone to give me a good reason why he won’t release his records, and why I shouldn’t be curious about why he won’t.
And those of us who are afflicted with concern about just what kind of president we have need, if not a little comfort, at least a little honesty.
There is a torrent of information about what the president and his administration are actually doing. It will tell you far more about what kind of president we have than his grades from 20+ years ago.
Robert Maxwell’s story is a conspiracy-lover’s dream come true. I’m still boggled by it.
Isn’t it just.
The only birth certificate the public has ever seen was a fraudulent one on B.O.’s web site.
Except several courts, many witnesses and lots of others have stated that it’s a perfectly valid birth certificate and not in the least fraudulent. Occams Razor is your friend here. Why not the original?
He’s or more likely his mother during one of their many moves probably lost it.
My brother lost his in his 20s when he was living in Australia and needed to get a copy. I’d have almost certainly lost mine if it hadn’t been in the family home. Fortunately my parent’s moved exactly once in 30 years.
As I recall Obama was born in Hawaii and then moved to Washington and then to several other places.
It’s modus tollens, and it’s an valid argument, not a fallacy: if BO has something damaging in his records, it follows that he will hide them. If he reveals them, then there’s nothing damaging in them.
It looks exactly like the one Obama put on his website
It doesn’t look like the phony birth certificate he originally had there and was taken down after being found out.
I didn’t have my real birth certificate until I was 16 and traveled back to NYC to get it. It’s been in my wallet ever since (35 yrs. now.) My parents had real and fake certificates for me. COLB is a secondary document, not permissible as ID in many cases.
Titus, you just crack me up. Both you and Rand have a sense of humor with the most delicate touch AND you can slam dunk it.
Except several courts, many witnesses and lots of others have stated that it’s a perfectly valid birth certificate and not in the least fraudulent. Occams Razor is your friend here.
Many people go along to get along. Occams razer applies more when the political axes aren’t being swung so fervently. We don’t know the truth because it’s being actively hidden. That doesn’t require an Occams guess. It’s a plain fact.
On the birth thing, I’m willing to buy the “it got lost along the way” argument for now. There just isn’t enough contrary evidence to go looking for Kenyan birth certificates at the moment.
The academic records are another matter. While the lack of any stellar grades may not tell us much about how smart (or not) Obama is, that doesn’t mean the President trusts Americans to come to the same conclusion. When your career has been as much about the myth of who you are as anything else, anything that doesn’t fit the myth is dangerous.
Except several courts, many witnesses and lots of others have stated that it’s a perfectly valid birth certificate
Sorry I missed your mistake here. We’re talking about two different documents. The birth certificate you say is witnessed is one. The fraud they put on and took down from their website is another.
WHY THE FRAUD?
While the lack of any stellar grades may not tell us much about how smart (or not) Obama is, that doesn’t mean the President trusts Americans to come to the same conclusion. When your career has been as much about the myth of who you are as anything else, anything that doesn’t fit the myth is dangerous.
In addition to that, his grades might raise another question: how did he get into Harvard?
We know he had a phony birth certificate, but not how long? We don’t know if he ever possessed a real birth certificate. You need a B.C. (phony or otherwise) to get a social security card, driver’s license or passport. It’s not that hard to get a replacement if lost.
So if he had a real B.C., why post a fraud on his website?
The fraud they put on and took down from their website is another.
Except, that that’s not what actually happened, at least not according to factcheck.org – they state that the first image was of a certification of live birth rather than a certificate, and that it’s perfectly valid evidence in a court for proof of birth.
It’s certainly not a fraud.
There’s an excellent overview here: http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html
Including pictures and descriptions of the “fraud” and the long form one.
There really appears to be nothing to this unless you really really want there to be.
if BO has something damaging in his records, it follows that he will hide them. If he reveals them, then there’s nothing damaging in them.
But it does not follow that if he hides them, there is something damaging.
We used this sort of reasoning about Saddam Hussein: he kept UN inspectors away from some sites, and we eavesdropped on his people talking about keeping things hidden, so clearly he had something to hide, and obviously it had to be WMD. Except that what he was actually hiding was the absence of WMDs.
The fact that Obama does not reveal his academic records reveals nothing about whether there is anything damaging in them. The most you can conclude is that Obama doesn’t think they would help him much, and that doesn’t tell you anything about their contents.
Anyone who watched him throw those two first pitches would know why he doesn’t want his original birth certificate shown. He is a girl. That doesn’t disqualify him from being President though.