And he doesn’t seem to mind:
The USNS Lewis and Clark was chased for about an hour on Wednesday morning by two pirates skiffs, but neither came closer than about one nautical mile to the U.S. vessel, the U.S. Navy’s Fifth Fleet said in a statement.
The small arms fire fell well short of the U.S. ship which speeded up to evade the skiffs.
So let me get this straight. A US Navy ship is fired upon by a ragtag gang, and instead of sending them to the bottom, they run away? What ROE have they gotten from the White House? Would this have happened during the previous administration? And if so, is this bipartisan stupidity?
If you want to discourage piracy, you have to make the costs higher than the rewards. This was a perfect opportunity to make an example of them. Instead, we seem to be doing just the opposite.
[Update a few minutes later, after a lot of discussion in comments, some of it useful]
If the L&C didn’t carry standoff armament that could take out a skiff at the range of a mile, it seems like they should at least be able to call in a chopper air strike. We should have a policy that one does not fire on US vessels with impunity and without consequence.
I think they should use submarines to shadow suspected pirate mother ships, wait until the pirates launch a raid, then torpedo them. This could be a major deterrent, because unlike with surface ships, you can never be sure there isn’t a submarine stalking you. Or would the local waters be too shallow for a submarine?
On second thought, those motherships are usually captured merchant vessels and the sub strategy could be defused by using hostages as human shields.
“USNS Lewis and Clark (T-AKE-1), the lead ship of her class of dry cargo ship, was the second ship of the United States Navy to be named for the explorers Meriwether Lewis and William Clark. The contract to build her was awarded to National Steel and Shipbuilding Company (NASSCO) of San Diego, California, on 18 October 2001 and her keel was laid down on 22 April 2004. She was launched 21 May 2005, ”
“he T-AKE will transfer cargo — ammunition, food, limited quantities of fuel, repair parts, ship store items and expendable supplies — at sea to station ships and other naval warfare forces.”
The Lewis and Clark has 49 Sailors, 123 Civilians on board, lots of Ammo, Fuel, and very little armor.
Discretion is the better part of valor for the L&C.
The L&C is needed to support Fleet operation in the middle east, getting an RPG into a cargo elevator risks all that.
There is a large enough complement to repel boarders, but, if they damage the ship they are in drydock for a few weeks.
But I am sure as a military expert you know that Mr Simberg
Interesting. The Lewis and Clark is an UNREP ship, so there’s probably no heavy weapons on board, but it’s currently acting as a holding ship for pirates we’ve captured.
Could this have been a prison break attempt?
USNS is very very different from USS. It isn’t a warship.
…if they damage the ship they are in drydock for a few weeks.
No one proposed that they damage their ship, you moron. How would it have damaged their ship to sink a pirate skiff?
Then perhaps it’s not such a hot idea to have a lightly-armed supply ship tooling around unescorted in waters frequented by armed pirates.
I’m glad that they can outrun them if necessary, but if we’re trying to project authority to discourage future attacks then that sort of response doesn’t seem strategically helpful. In any case, I’d hope that they were willing and able to provide the same level of resistance that we’d hope for from even a purely civilian merchant vessel.
All they would need to take out those pirate skiffs from a safe range is one M-2 .50 cal Machine Gun. Thye could engage them well outside the effective range of small arms fire or the effective range of an RPG.
Can something like Phalanx or Goalkeeper stop RPGs?
There’s no reason to allow them in RPG range.
Discretion is the better part of valor for the L&C.
I’m thinking Generals Grant, Patton, and MacArthur would have you cashiered or taken out and shot, depending on the circumstances when you said such a silly thing.
I can’t bring to mind a war that was won by discretion, but I can think of plenty that were won by valor.
Could the pirates arm themselves with M-2 .50 caliber Browning machine guns? I know almost nothing on the subject, but 10 seconds of googling revealed that they can be mounted in inflatable boats, and, if I understand correctly, a typical price is $14,000.
An inflatible boat would not make an ideal platform for a .50 M2 and would greatly limit its maximum effective range. Nor would it make a trained operator either.
Not to mention the fact a .50 would do very limited damage to even a naval cargo vessal. It would do tremendous damage to a skiff.
getting an RPG into a cargo elevator risks all that.
Ok, military genius and L&C know it all, where are these cargo elevators, and how do you plan on hitting them with an RPG from a skiff?
Why do you believe the T-AKE-1 is such a poor design that it can be disabled and laid up in dry dock for months by an RPG round?
USNS means the ship is operated by civilians, not US Navy. It does not have any heavy weapons or crew-serviced MGs.
Having said that, they should (but obviously don’t) have a military security unit onboard.
Martin – CIWS and submarines are of limited use in anti-piracy ops. CIWS is designed to track air targets and fire automatically, so the computer won’t see the skiff. (There may be a manual override of some kind, but it would be a kludge).
A submarine’s torpedoes wouldn’t recognize a skiff as a target, and using them against the fishing boats used as motherships is like hunting flies with a sledgehammer – overkill and not very effective.
where are these cargo elevators, and how do you plan on hitting them with an RPG from a skiff? – forward of the main deck house.
Although the cargo elevators aren’t what I’d worry about – those big black hoses just forward of the main house are fuel hoses. One of them gets shot up and her unrep capability is cut in half.
This is why, in wartime, oilers are escorted by destroyers – they aren’t designed to fight.
Mike, thanks. I saw photos of m-2 .50 machine guns mounted on an inflatable boat in the wikipedia article on the subject here: “http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M2_Browning_machine_gun” Maybe you can improve the article. (No sarcasm – wikipedia can always be improved, and I know you have the background for the article.)
In general, I wonder how well-armed the pirates could plausibly be (if they have enough money for some heavy arms, I suppose they wouldn’t bother being pirates. I just hope their goals stay economic – I’d hate to see them turn into a Hezbollah-like organization.)
Carl, I’d say almost every war is won by discretion too. For example, in WWII, why didn’t the US and the UK do operation Operation Sledgehammer and instead waited two years for Operation Overlord (the Normandy invasion)?
I was just curious if a CIWS could defeat any RPGs that managed to get close. I agree that a submarine would be overkill, but the nice thing is you could never be sure there wasn’t one on your tail – until it’s too late. Do you know if the waters near Somalia are deep enough for submarines?
The Dutch Navy has submarines – but not much to do with them. If you’re going on a training mission anyway, you might as well try and catch some pirates 🙂
I was just curious if a CIWS could defeat any RPGs that managed to get close. – you’re probably inside the radar range. Regarding subs – US subs are much bigger then the Dutch boats, but there’s plenty of water for both.
Rand – what makes you think the White House is making tactical decisions about escorting (or not, in this case) ships?
“if they damage the ship they are in drydock for a few weeks.
No one proposed that they damage their ship, you moron. How would it have damaged their ship to sink a pirate skiff?”
The Pirates have a say in that. They usually carry RPG’s and light machine guns.
Rand – what makes you think the White House is making tactical decisions about escorting (or not, in this case) ships?
I don’t necessarily think that (though it wouldn’t be unprecedented). I’m asking.
The Pirates have a say in that. They usually carry RPG’s and light machine guns.
Whose range and accuracy is limited, whereas a ship can carry standoff weapons.
Carl Pham Says:
“Discretion is the better part of valor for the L&C.
I’m thinking Generals Grant, Patton, and MacArthur would have you cashiered or taken out and shot, depending on the circumstances when you said such a silly thing.
I can’t bring to mind a war that was won by discretion, but I can think of plenty that were won by valor.”
I can name a war that was won by Discretion.
The Cold War.
Lots of Discretion, Very little Valor.
Rand: What would they sink the skiffs with?
The L+C is an unarmed cargo vessel. It’s not maneuverable enough to ram a small powerboat.
“Speeding up and moving out of small-arms range” was the correct response.
(On the other hand, that sort of thing does make me think that even dry cargo ships in Naval service should have a few heavy machineguns, at least for Somalian coast service.
Perhaps a 20mm autocannon… that should out-range anything pirates carry.)
A 25mm Bushmaster cannon woudl; fill the bill nicely.
“We should have a policy that one does not fire on US vessels with impunity and without consequence.”
Do you think the pirates knew it was a US vessel before they decided to attack? Maybe it just looked like a juicy target. At what distance can you recognise a flag without binoculars? The other day pirates accidentally tried to attack a ship, not realising it was a French navy frigate on anti-piracy patrol until it was too late.
LOL, here’s an article that has more detail:
http://arabianoilandgas.com/article-5397-somali_pirates_captured_after_attacking_warship
The French frigate deliberately sailed into the sun so the pirates couldn’t identify it as a warship! Some clever thinking by our cheese-eating friends.
Do you think the pirates knew it was a US vessel before they decided to attack?
I don’t really care much. If firing on a US vessel gets them killed, it doesn’t matter whether or not they knew it was a US vessel or not. In fact, it’s better if they didn’t because it will make other pirates afraid to fire on any vessel, because they won’t know whether or not it will “make their day.”
Another thing to consider here is that if pirates can keep making money, they’ll be able to afford bigger weapons and more capable ships. The current efforts aren’t enough in my view to discourage these pirates.
Although the cargo elevators aren’t what I’d worry about – those big black hoses just forward of the main house are fuel hoses. One of them gets shot up and her unrep capability is cut in half.
Agreed, that would be a bad day. I hope they can find spares in such an event.
The Pirates have a say in that. They usually carry RPG’s and light machine guns.
And a light machine gun’s going to put a ship in drydock for weeks?
Leland – I’d hate to see the air-freight bill on one of those – as I recall, the hoses were damn heavy.
Not as heavy as a SEAL team.
“The Pirates have a say in that. They usually carry RPG’s and light machine guns.
And a light machine gun’s going to put a ship in drydock for weeks?”
Obviously all these armchair experts have never done marine repairs or worked around logistics ships.
I work with a guy who was Command Master Chief on a replenishment ship and another guy who was skipper of a replenishment ship. I’ll try and bring this discussion up.
If a RPG round punches through the doors of a cargo elevator and damages the lifting mechanism, you are going to spend some time in drydock. You may need to cut the old lift out, you may need to get parts air freighted, you need to get workers in to reinstall these, certify that none of the structure is cracked, and make sure no secondary systems were damaged by blast.
Cargo ships aren’t line ships, and, even if you mount guns on them, they don’t have the damage resistance of a warship.
More importantly these ships have a key role, they are the force multiplier for the fleet, they give legs to the carriers, they give morale to the crew, they provide the ability to maintain fleet readiness while at sea. If these ships are down for even a week, flying hours for the choppers falls, readiness of key systems drops and the morale of the crew falls as they eat powdered eggs and freeze dried meals instead of fresh vegetables and milk
The major victory in 1967 was the israeli attacks on syrian fuel tankers.
That said, mounting a few M-2s and having the crew trained for these drills is going to be necessary in pirate infested waters.
But i’m probably just some vile moron for being acquainted with facts.
“If the L&C didn’t carry standoff armament that could take out a skiff at the range of a mile, it seems like they should at least be able to call in a chopper air strike.”
Well, as such a brilliant military strategist, why don’t you call
Adm Gortney,Sanders or Captain Craig at CentCom and tell them how to do their job. Obviously you seem to know more about what they should be doing then they do. Maybe you could even volunteer for a tour at Centcom.
In any given discussion, lack of knowledge can render anyone a Whittington.
Yours,
Tom DeGisi, aka Wince and Nod
“If a RPG round punches through the doors of a cargo elevator and damages the lifting mechanism, you are going to spend some time in drydock. You may need to cut the old lift out, you may need to get parts air freighted, you need to get workers in to reinstall these, certify that none of the structure is cracked, and make sure no secondary systems were damaged by blast.”
At anything short of near point-blank, such a shot from a skiff onto a moving skiff with an RPG that disables a lift would be pure luck. And that is assuming the pirates even know where to aim.
They would be well within the engagement envelope of anything including and more powerful than an M-16.
Apparently, some ‘armchair experts’ in this thread have never fired an anti-tank weapon or been briefed on the capabilities of an RPG-7. There are things they can and things they can’t do very well. Used within a certain envelope, they do their job, outside that envelope, they are a big bottle rocket.
If RPG’s become that much of a threat, you could simply build a shield around critical systems such as lifts consisting of nothing more than some improvised stand-offs made from welded pipe and common chain-link fence. A ship is not a land vehicle, this would prove far less of an encumberance.
Premature detonation will render the warhead ineffective.
Hell, I would suspect 80+ percent of the Somali pirates RPG rounds are duds anyways. Constant exposure to salt water, rough handling and an exposed piezoelectric contact detonator do not make a good combination.
Make that moving skiff onto a moving ship.
“At anything short of near point-blank, such a shot from a skiff onto a moving skiff with an RPG that disables a lift would be pure luck.”
Of course. But ‘golden BBs’ do happen from time to time.
Mike Puckett – one could, and in many cases should, do all kinds of things.
Unfortunately, at this moment in time, the Lewis and Clark apparently hadn’t done some of them. So, a trained and certified expert (the vessel’s master) who happened to be on the scene instead of 6,000 miles away like all the Armchair Admirals in this thread, made a tactical decision.
“Of course. But ‘golden BBs’ do happen from time to time.”
And inexpensive slat or chain-link armor locally fabricated with common items could effectively eliminate this threat.
There is a reason they are considered ‘golden’ and that is because of their rarity.
jack lee wrote “I can name a war that was won by Discretion.
The Cold War.
Lots of Discretion, Very little Valor.”
Really? How many US and allied dead and wounded in Korea, Vietnam, even the Falklands(Maggie may have convinced the Politburo she would fight if West Germany was invaded – I count this as part of winning the Cold War.) How many US and allied soldiers, sailors and airmen died while training or standing watch, on patrol or in intercept or reconaissance missions.
Lots of valor while staving off the threat of thermonuclear destruction, jack.
“Apparently, some ‘armchair experts’ in this thread have never fired an anti-tank weapon or been briefed on the capabilities of an RPG-7. ”
I was qualified as a 90MM rifle gunner when I still had hair.
It’s similiar in class to an RPG.
And while there are many things one can do to harden a ship, and weapons are a big part of that, the Skipper of the Boat and 5th Fleet made decisions that resulted in no loss of capability and no casualties.
And if we didn’t have so much of the fleet tied up in the persian gulf perhaps we could sweep these criminals off the seas. But,
And In theory a Blackhawk is resistant to an RPG round and yet these self same somalis knocked down 2 blackhawks and sure tore up the Rangers.
But Colonel Puckett was on scene there at Mogadishu and won that battle by sheer force of will.
Given the comments here, I’m not going to criticize his decision. I’m criticizing the policy that put him into a position where that was his best option. I continue to maintain that this is no way to discourage piracy.
I’m criticizing the policy that put him into a position where that was his best option. I continue to maintain that this is no way to discourage piracy.
It didn’t come out that way in the initial post, but as it happens I agree with the sentiment.
Part of the problem we’re facing here is that piracy has been such a low threat that nobody’s set up for it. See, IEDs in Iraq circa 2003 for another example. Or for that matter counterinsurgency in Iraq in the same time frame.
It didn’t come out that way in the initial post, but as it happens I agree with the sentiment.
Even in the initial post, I never blamed the captain.
“I was qualified as a 90MM rifle gunner when I still had hair.
It’s similiar in class to an RPG.”
No it isn’t. A recoilless rifle is not a rocket.
“And In theory a Blackhawk is resistant to an RPG round and yet these self same somalis knocked down 2 blackhawks and sure tore up the Rangers.”
What theory Jack? Aircraft certainly are not resistant to AT rounds. It is resistant to small arms fire of which an RPG is not, in spite of what the administration and the liberal media might have told you suggesting that you can get one at a Texas gun show. I want to see where in the FM for a UH-60 Blackhawk it is resistant to shaped-charge warheads. I am sure you can easily produce this documentation since you are so certain.
But a Blackhawk isn’t a ship anyway Jack so your straw-ship does not hold water. Big suprise there. Please tell us how may ships you have shot down!
I put this in the above:”Hell, I would suspect 80+ percent of the Somali pirates RPG rounds are duds anyways. Constant exposure to salt water, rough handling and an exposed piezoelectric contact detonator do not make a good combination.”
To give you a clue before you posted something stupid comparing helicopters to ships. I see the strawman idiocy in you is immune to such information.
“But Colonel Puckett was on scene there at Mogadishu and won that battle by sheer force of will.”
Well Sub-Commander Jack, you aren’t going to win this thread by sheer force of stupid, you should consider declaring victory and going home.
Rand – you blamed the ROE, or Rules of Engagement. The problem here was not the ROE, but the lack of E (equipment) with which to Engage.
That lack of equipment decision was made decades ago by some faceless Admiral, long retired, sitting in the Pentagon who was thinking of fighting the USSR. (An M-2 or a Bushmaster is pretty useless against an anti-ship missile or torpedo.)
Rand – you blamed the ROE, or Rules of Engagement.
Yes, I did. That’s a different thing than blaming the ship’s master.
I’d think a 20mm Oerlikon would fit the bill here. That would pop a pirates pumpkin from a mile for sure. I’m not too certain of the modern equivalent.
Buddy I used to work with was a weapons load specialist on a navy carrier and he occasionally got to man a 20mm auto-cannon that they used for mine sweep duty: Spot a mine, call it in, and blow it up(if ordered I’m sure). From the picture he showed me it didn’t look like the 20mm Oerlikon, though, and had a short barrel. At any rate, he said he felt like a maniac when he shot it — I bet.
Or, maybe something like this.
jack lee said:
“I was qualified as a 90MM rifle gunner when I still had hair.”
Why would the navy train sailors to fire an m67 recoilless?
“And In theory a Blackhawk is resistant to an RPG round and yet these self same somalis knocked down 2 blackhawks and sure tore up the Rangers.”
And when you low orbit the same position for extended periods you increase the enemies opportunity to succeed. I guess that is what you get with a “police action” style of military force.
Oh, and those “tore up Rangers” tore open a bit of ass of their own too. If your handed eggs, make omelets.
“We should have a policy that one does not fire on US vessels with impunity and without consequence.”
Not in Obama-world. 🙁