What Flopping Aces is not clear on is where the SEAL shooters came from. Gen. Jones (in the Washington Times article cited by Aces) said that the team on the Bainbridge came from Norfolk, VA, a 7,800 mile flight. Assuming 400 knot speed-over-ground, that’s 19.5 hours in the air.
The other issue, which is not clear, is when Bainbridge got on station. Reports at the time suggest it was a better part of a day’s steam away.
A third issue is when Bainbridge disengaged from the pirates to make the pickup. Presumably the SEALs didn’t parachute in during the day or within sight of the pirates.
A third issue is when Bainbridge disengaged from the pirates to make the pickup. Presumably the SEALs didn’t parachute in during the day or within sight of the pirates.
I’m with you until this part. The USS Bainbridge has a helicopter flight deck, regardless of whatever it was actually operating. It could land a Seahawk with SEAL operators. My understanding was a helicopter was seen a few times in the area, so the pirates shouldn’t have been particularly tweaked to see one land. The helicopter, if there, would likely have come from USS Boxer. I expect the SEAL team was delivered to Boxer and then shuttled over to Bainbridge.
I don’t see Bainbridge breaking contact.
I saw this somewhere else, so this is not original with me. The real test is if the Captain of the Bainbridge and others get medals and promotions, or if they get posted to Camp Yankee, Greenland (no offense to our fine, fine men and women in uniform in Greenland).
The the Captain of the Bainbridge gets invited to the White House for a ceremony, Mr. Obama gets street cred for being tough on pirates, regardless of how the outcome rescuing Captain Philips was achieved. If the President dithered, but the outcome was successful and if the President wants to get the word out that this is the way to advance your Navy career, we really need to give Mr. Obama his propers.
On the other hand . . .
Bainbridge has a helicopter flight deck Yes, but she wasn’t within helo range of a US base. That’s why the SEALs parachuted into the water.
Let’s try this again. I said nothing about being near a US Base. I said the helicopter was operating off the USS Boxer, but grant it, the SEALs deployed via C-17. Now tell us again why would the SEALs parachuting somewhere necessitate USS Bainbridge disengaging?
Well, it wasn’t clear that Boxer was in helo range either, not that they can recover a C-17 – well, at least not in one piece 😉
I suspect that the Bainbridge would want to put a couple of miles between the pirates and the drop zone. Having an errant SEAL parachute into the boat would really suck. Also, not advertising the arrival of reinforcements and retaining a little surprise is always a good tactical principle.
Well, it wasn’t clear that Boxer was in helo range either, not that they can recover a C-17 – well, at least not in one piece
So your argument is; you don’t know if the USS Boxer was in helo range and then you make a joke about it can’t recover a C-17. So explain to us landlubbers how Captain Phillips was transferred from the USS Bainbridge to the USS Boxer for his medical examination and call to Obama?
According to this account, the USS Boxer was in helo range, and the USS Hallyburton (reinforcements)arrived on scene as well. According to this account, the USS Bainbridge was shuttling a RIB to and from the lifeboat for days.
I’ll grant the USS Bainbridge could have picked up the SEAL team itself. I don’t agree with you thinking it disengaged. Between RIBs, Helicopters, and SEALs bringing their own inflatables (as another account suggested), I see no reason for USS Bainbridge to disengage. A show of force on the other hand was exactly why it was there to begin with.
For Pete’s sake, Leland, don’t get so worked up.
The question is, “at what time was Boxer in helo range?” I think the SEALs were on board for at least a day before they got their shot, so Boxer could have been up to 500 miles away (21 knots SOA x 24 hours). Helo range (IIRC, it’s been a few years since I did flight ops) is around 200 miles.
How many hours did the Boxer have to get into helo range of Bainbridge, knowing that they were going to pickup (in something like 19 hours, right?) a SEAL team and ferry them (if you’re going one way, range is double or something like 400 miles) to the Bainbridge? At a glance, the Boxer only needs to be within 800 or so miles of the Bainbridge in order to pull this feat off. I simply can’t see how the logistics could delay the SEAL team so much, unless someone screwed up.
Two things that bother me is the assertion that this rescue came about because the commanders on the scene took the initiative rather than a clear order to do so by higher leadership. And the implication that the Obama administration may have been ready to negotiate with the pirates.
Hrmm, reading some more, I’d have to say that the source for all this speculation sounds pretty iffy. I wouldn’t trust it.
Gerrib, without doing the math, all accounts I’ve read suggest the USS Boxer was in the area providing support to USS Bainbridge by Friday. The shot occurred Sunday. So your timeline of 24 hours still fits.
I’m not worked up, I just trying to figure out how you see tactics in this situation. It’s very interesting to see how a liberal, that still believes in military defense, thinks about how to handle this situation. In that regard, disengaging from potential hostility fits the typical liberal model of deconflicting the situation.
disengaging from potential hostility fits the typical liberal model of deconflicting the situation..
There’s a very good book, an anthology of military SF, called “When Diplomacy Fails.” The editor is a liberal, and I think the title fits the liberal view of when to go to violence.
We should undertake violence when non-violent action has failed. Either deterence failed (we’re under attack or imminent threat of same) or we can’t accomplish what we need diplomatically (unreasonable / suicidally stupid adversaries, AKA 4 kids in a life boat).
I’m not sure where all this analysis goes?
The SEALs were there for 2 days, 1 day or 90 minutes?
The seals were in theatre, in europe, in Norfolk?
The FBI was sending a team?
Obama wanted to talk?
Who cares?
If Obama could send a negotiator great, if he went in guns blazing great.
who cares?
It could have bearing on the future. For example, a ham-handed rescue instead of a competent rescue would imply problems that could entangle future US military activities.
What Flopping Aces is not clear on is where the SEAL shooters came from. Gen. Jones (in the Washington Times article cited by Aces) said that the team on the Bainbridge came from Norfolk, VA, a 7,800 mile flight. Assuming 400 knot speed-over-ground, that’s 19.5 hours in the air.
The other issue, which is not clear, is when Bainbridge got on station. Reports at the time suggest it was a better part of a day’s steam away.
A third issue is when Bainbridge disengaged from the pirates to make the pickup. Presumably the SEALs didn’t parachute in during the day or within sight of the pirates.
A third issue is when Bainbridge disengaged from the pirates to make the pickup. Presumably the SEALs didn’t parachute in during the day or within sight of the pirates.
I’m with you until this part. The USS Bainbridge has a helicopter flight deck, regardless of whatever it was actually operating. It could land a Seahawk with SEAL operators. My understanding was a helicopter was seen a few times in the area, so the pirates shouldn’t have been particularly tweaked to see one land. The helicopter, if there, would likely have come from USS Boxer. I expect the SEAL team was delivered to Boxer and then shuttled over to Bainbridge.
I don’t see Bainbridge breaking contact.
I saw this somewhere else, so this is not original with me. The real test is if the Captain of the Bainbridge and others get medals and promotions, or if they get posted to Camp Yankee, Greenland (no offense to our fine, fine men and women in uniform in Greenland).
The the Captain of the Bainbridge gets invited to the White House for a ceremony, Mr. Obama gets street cred for being tough on pirates, regardless of how the outcome rescuing Captain Philips was achieved. If the President dithered, but the outcome was successful and if the President wants to get the word out that this is the way to advance your Navy career, we really need to give Mr. Obama his propers.
On the other hand . . .
Bainbridge has a helicopter flight deck Yes, but she wasn’t within helo range of a US base. That’s why the SEALs parachuted into the water.
Let’s try this again. I said nothing about being near a US Base. I said the helicopter was operating off the USS Boxer, but grant it, the SEALs deployed via C-17. Now tell us again why would the SEALs parachuting somewhere necessitate USS Bainbridge disengaging?
Well, it wasn’t clear that Boxer was in helo range either, not that they can recover a C-17 – well, at least not in one piece 😉
I suspect that the Bainbridge would want to put a couple of miles between the pirates and the drop zone. Having an errant SEAL parachute into the boat would really suck. Also, not advertising the arrival of reinforcements and retaining a little surprise is always a good tactical principle.
Well, it wasn’t clear that Boxer was in helo range either, not that they can recover a C-17 – well, at least not in one piece
So your argument is; you don’t know if the USS Boxer was in helo range and then you make a joke about it can’t recover a C-17. So explain to us landlubbers how Captain Phillips was transferred from the USS Bainbridge to the USS Boxer for his medical examination and call to Obama?
According to this account, the USS Boxer was in helo range, and the USS Hallyburton (reinforcements)arrived on scene as well. According to this account, the USS Bainbridge was shuttling a RIB to and from the lifeboat for days.
I’ll grant the USS Bainbridge could have picked up the SEAL team itself. I don’t agree with you thinking it disengaged. Between RIBs, Helicopters, and SEALs bringing their own inflatables (as another account suggested), I see no reason for USS Bainbridge to disengage. A show of force on the other hand was exactly why it was there to begin with.
For Pete’s sake, Leland, don’t get so worked up.
The question is, “at what time was Boxer in helo range?” I think the SEALs were on board for at least a day before they got their shot, so Boxer could have been up to 500 miles away (21 knots SOA x 24 hours). Helo range (IIRC, it’s been a few years since I did flight ops) is around 200 miles.
How many hours did the Boxer have to get into helo range of Bainbridge, knowing that they were going to pickup (in something like 19 hours, right?) a SEAL team and ferry them (if you’re going one way, range is double or something like 400 miles) to the Bainbridge? At a glance, the Boxer only needs to be within 800 or so miles of the Bainbridge in order to pull this feat off. I simply can’t see how the logistics could delay the SEAL team so much, unless someone screwed up.
Two things that bother me is the assertion that this rescue came about because the commanders on the scene took the initiative rather than a clear order to do so by higher leadership. And the implication that the Obama administration may have been ready to negotiate with the pirates.
Hrmm, reading some more, I’d have to say that the source for all this speculation sounds pretty iffy. I wouldn’t trust it.
Gerrib, without doing the math, all accounts I’ve read suggest the USS Boxer was in the area providing support to USS Bainbridge by Friday. The shot occurred Sunday. So your timeline of 24 hours still fits.
I’m not worked up, I just trying to figure out how you see tactics in this situation. It’s very interesting to see how a liberal, that still believes in military defense, thinks about how to handle this situation. In that regard, disengaging from potential hostility fits the typical liberal model of deconflicting the situation.
disengaging from potential hostility fits the typical liberal model of deconflicting the situation..
There’s a very good book, an anthology of military SF, called “When Diplomacy Fails.” The editor is a liberal, and I think the title fits the liberal view of when to go to violence.
We should undertake violence when non-violent action has failed. Either deterence failed (we’re under attack or imminent threat of same) or we can’t accomplish what we need diplomatically (unreasonable / suicidally stupid adversaries, AKA 4 kids in a life boat).
I’m not sure where all this analysis goes?
The SEALs were there for 2 days, 1 day or 90 minutes?
The seals were in theatre, in europe, in Norfolk?
The FBI was sending a team?
Obama wanted to talk?
Who cares?
If Obama could send a negotiator great, if he went in guns blazing great.
who cares?
It could have bearing on the future. For example, a ham-handed rescue instead of a competent rescue would imply problems that could entangle future US military activities.